Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread

[BackThatPassUp]

Arizona or us

Wasn't the scoop over the weekend that Arizona was pretty much out of it?

Trending that way. Take that how you will

 

[americanoutlaw11]

Agree with most everything you said here. Obviously a Ripper devotee. I have read many of his books and read SS articles on the reg, and am a former competitive powerlifter and Olympic weightlifter myself. That said, do any of us really know the intricacies of Fletch's programs? Do we know they don't involve a serious strength component? No doubt many S &C coaches are a joke and just latch onto the latest fad in the industry. I'd like to think (hope) that our guy is somehow different.

I don’t know, but I remember seeing a video where Goode was bench pressing this past year and he looked about as explosive and coordinated doing it as high school freshmen weight rooms I’ve been in… not a hint of technique or intention… just pounding out some mindless reps with a sticking point on each one where the triceps start taking over the lift… since he was 3 years in on the program, then it’s a solid guess there isn’t a lot of emphasis on singular force production or execution, it’s just sets and reps. Of course, that’s a lot of assuming I’m doing from one video…

 

[Goldtop]

Is he or has he visited there?

 

[More3s]

Fletch is highly respected in the industry by his peers, coaches and players for a reason. What more evidence do you need that he’s one of the best? Players have credited him for their development, coaches have raved about him, yet Illini fans on and Illini fan forum are asking for more evidence that he’s a tremendous asset and one of the best in the biz? Come on people.

We are the only fanbase I know that does this. I don’t get it.

Yeah fair points. I probably shouldn't have said anything on it, although I do think with fitness and performance in general there is indeed a temptation to get fancy for no real benefit (and sometimes it's a detriment). But you're right that Fletch has a great reputation and I have no grounds to say it's not well-earned.

Also, I'll add that I really felt like, especially later in the year, you could CLEARLY tell our team was often just better conditioned than our opponents, and we'd wear teams down and pull away in the second half regularly. So hat's off to Fletch.

Oh and if he plays a part in landing Will Riley or other players of that caliber, than he's worth his weight in gold...

 

[jamarvelous31]

TL; DR: We have no idea. S&C programs appear to waste incredible amounts of time and resources and leave untold amounts of athlete performance on the table. These guys should be lifting heavy, which will enable them to couple their genetically-gifted neuromuscular efficiency (explosiveness) with immense force production, armor them against injury, and realize their physical potential. It won't happen anytime soon. Then they should go practice basketball. Skip the BOSU balls.

******************

I'll post what will certainly be an unpopular response (lol, who am I kidding... I'm gonna get dogpiled): we have no reason to believe he's a star in absolute terms though he may well be relative to other S&C coaches simply because the bar is set so low. I'll note in advance that I've never seen his training plan, and have only seen the social media snippets of guys in the weight room that the DIA publicizes. It seems clear, however, that a lot of performance is being left on the table, and our guys could benefit by being much stronger.

Any D-1 athlete is a genetic freak residing at the extreme end of the distribution of neuromuscular efficiency. Someone has a 35-inch vertical jump (or a 48-inch one if he's Darrell Griffith or MJ) because he's crazy efficient at recruiting motor neurons to contract muscles. It's not something that can be trained except at a very small margin (adding perhaps a couple %.) Bring these guys in at 18 and you can literally do little more than feed them and they will grow, get bigger by the time they're 22, and look like gods throughout.

D-1 players are on the court partly because they're incredibly explosive, a.k.a. "powerful." (In extremis: TSJ.) That power is a function of the force they can apply over a distance in a unit of time. "Time" is the explosiveness variable and (e.g., the SVJ) isn't amenable to training. But you can train the force component: lift heavy weights. Anything less is a suboptimal approach to using the limited time available for training. SVJ, agility, etc... can't be trained for meaningful gain. Strength certainly can, for years on end.

I may be wrong about what Adam is doing with the guys; however, from the social media I see, it's not lifting heavy weights. It's lifting fairly light weights, balancing on BOSU balls while asymmetrically loaded with dumbbells, and other suboptimal exercises.

I'm unaware of a single basketball program in which the S&C coach trains players meaningfully for strength. Everyone on our team should be at the very least squatting 500 and deadlifting 600. Probably much more. (Kofi probably should have been pulling upwards of 800.) The development of that kind of force production combined with innate neuromuscular efficiency would maximize their physical potential. It would also make them a great deal more difficult to push around on the court and bullet proof their joints (esp. knees) from injury. It would make them stronger, more powerful, more resilient athletes.

(Let's dismiss the strawman here that this will make them into fat, sluggish, mediocre linemen. No, it won't. Or, horrors, "musclebound.")

The problem is that head coaches aren't informed consumers of S&C programs, and so an S&C coach who wants to keep his job will never risk training his athletes to lift properly (and, frankly, few if any S&C coaches appear to understand how to lift properly.) Mark Rippetoe of Starting Strength fame has written at great length about this topic for many, many years. (This article from 2016 for example. Yeah, it's long.) The barrier to entry here is understanding the mechanics of safe, efficient lifting, learning to coach it, and teaching lifters how to manage psychologically when the load gets really heavy. It's an acquired skill that takes time and intelligence. So instead we get high-volume sets at light weight, relatively light "squatlifting" with a trap bar, and "heavy squats will injure your knees!" Yeah, they will: if you do them incorrectly. If you do them correctly, which is fairly easy to learn, they'll write you an insurance policy against torn ACLs.

As for endurance, strength is an incredibly persistent adaptation. Getting up the cardio conditioning curve is a pretty quick process: we gain and lose that capacity quickly. Getting up that curve when you're very strong is effortless. Adam may well be making our guys relatively stronger than the competition, so they're better conditioned. I have no idea, of course, because I don't know how he trains them. It's obvious, however, that they don't lift meaningfully, and so a lot of potential goes unrealized. That's a shame.

It's incredible that these programs leave so much on the table where athlete performance is concerned. It's such low-hanging fruit it's unbelievable that it's ignored. I have little confidence, however, that it will change anytime soon.

 

[Loyalillini10]

Yeah fair points. I probably shouldn't have said anything on it, although I do think with fitness and performance in general there is indeed a temptation to get fancy for no real benefit (and sometimes it's a detriment). But you're right that Fletch has a great reputation and I have no grounds to say it's not well-earned.

Also, I'll add that I really felt like, especially later in the year, you could CLEARLY tell our team was often just better conditioned than our opponents, and we'd wear teams down and pull away in the second half regularly. So hat's off to Fletch.

Oh and if he plays a part in landing Will Riley or other players of that caliber, than he's worth his weight in gold...

The average S&C coach in D1 basketball makes less than 80k/year. Fletch makes 210K. There is a reason.

 

[BretMyBeachHouse]

Thanks for your awesome post we're lucky to have people willing have a different opinion and the courage to say it even when they don't think it's popular. Aside from some insiders how do we know how good Fletch is? But what does come across on this message board is that he is an amazing team player that has that rare ability to get through to the players he's coaching. That human element that he has is rare and immensely valuable. He sounds like he is incredibly accessible and the work he puts into these recruiting side of things is huge.

Back in the day (a decade ago) when I had some connections to the program, it was said that the strength guys spent more time with players than anyone else. Coaches literally had time limits put on them in terms of working with them, but not strength guys. Therefore, the mental aspect of the S&C guy was as important, or more so, than what he accomplished with the actual weights.

I have no doubt that Fletch is really good. I do doubt that his S&C ability is that much better than others in the field.

The soft skills, so to speak, I have no clue on.

 

[jhayton]

Alabama men's basketball 2024 transfer portal, NBA draft tracker

Alabama's roster could again be reshaped this offseason by the transfer portal and NBA draft.

247sports.com

"Projected scholarship count (as of May 29, 8:45 p.m. CT): 13 (NCAA limit is 13)"

0 scholarships open?

Their staff can count… and legitimately these days you actually could have NIL money to take care of a scholarship player and bump them to walk-on. Sure they might not get athlete housing, but if you make it worth their while… well I think we can all say this is different kind of numbers game than it was when we were counting scholarships with Groce *sad panda noises*

 

[illini0440]

I come back and all of a sudden Fletch doesn’t know what he’s doing?

 

[illinoispeak]

Fletch is highly respected in the industry by his peers, coaches and players for a reason. What more evidence do you need that he’s one of the best? Players have credited him for their development, coaches have raved about him, yet Illini fans on and Illini fan forum are asking for more evidence that he’s a tremendous asset and one of the best in the biz? Come on people.

We are the only fanbase I know that does this. I don’t get it.

It was just one guy w a bad hot take

 

[LvilleILL]

Approaching that point of the offseason

 

[Chillinini]

Did not realize some of the Loyalty member base are experts in S&C. Please provide me a work out plan that contradicts what Fletch does. Please.

 

[jhayton]

Can someone explain why we are all so convinced Fletch is so good? I have no reason to doubt that he is, but he is up there with Bill Brasky as far as legends go, and I'm not sure what the empirical evidence is. We don't seem to avoid injuries any better than anyone else. We don't seem to have guys who simply overpower our opponents (except Terrance, and I think he has been that way for a while). Plenty of other kids cut baby fat and add muscle.

Are there rankings for S&C coaches? Is there data people use to evaluate success or skill?

If there were a vote of confidence in an S&C coach it’s being retained through a head coaching change…

Not only has Fletch been retained by Daddy Brad, but he has had that contract renewed. Brad has been in the college basketball coaching game a long time. If our soft tissue injury history isn’t enough to convince you (certainly some luck involved but mostly diet, conditioning, and preparation), maybe we should trust Brad.

 

[Fly Illini Fly!]

I come back and all of a sudden Fletch doesn’t know what he’s doing?

Approaching that point of the offseason

 

[IlliniNash]

I come back and all of a sudden Fletch doesn’t know what he’s doing?

Well. At least he’s still a selling point for nutrition and sleep I guess.
Fletch has to be the most respected S&C coach by coaches and players, but the least respected by Illini fans that don’t even know what is plan is.

 

[skyIdub]

I offered cottage cheese if this years team is better than ‘05 and ‘88, and…. Will’ed….this into existence.

You’ll never convince me otherwise.

 

[ILBB94]

Fletch is like....

 

[rtbritt]

I agree with your overall sentiment.. and I realize we’re dealing with the cream of the crop here, but your numbers are high by quite a bit- especially for a young (presumably tall) basketball player… I’m guessing you’d be hard pressed to find 12 guys on our football team (remember, these are drug tested 18-22 year old kids) who can truly take 500 to the floor and straight bar pull 600. How many 7 footers out there- professional strength athlete or not- are pulling 800? It’s just not a thing.

But yeah, getting as strong as you can in the 1-3 rep range on squat variations (especially box squat), deadlift variations and power cleans is definitely where it’s at for athletes.

I mean really, what’s going to do more for performance? Single leg bosu ball squats with a 45 lb dumbbell at your chest for 12 reps? Or slapping a bunch of 45’s on the bar and taking it for a freaking ride… the kind of weight everyone stops to watch… everyone knows the answer, but for some reason they keep looking for a different one… it’s because everyone wants to either be the smartest guy in the room or everyone wants to believe there’s some secret out there that is the culprit for their own shortcomings. And since linear progression on compound lifts is boring, many assume it’s that one secret those smart guys are hiding from the rest of us

Honestly, I am not a guru when it comes to lifting, but when I was in school, we all thought the 1 rep max was cool and where it was at, but I would guess that 1 rep max pretty much did nothing but cause me pains in my older age.

Maybe my sarcasm meter is broken, and you are saying exactly that, or maybe you just know more than me and that 1-3 rep max is actually important??

 

[LadyLoyalty]

Thanks for your awesome post we're lucky to have people willing have a different opinion and the courage to say it even when they don't think it's popular. Aside from some insiders how do we know how good Fletch is? But what does come across on this message board is that he is an amazing team player that has that rare ability to get through to the players he's coaching. That human element that he has is rare and immensely valuable. He sounds like he is incredibly accessible and the work he puts into these recruiting side of things is huge.

Yes, it takes a lot of courage to anonymously post on a college basketball blog.

 

[Illini8420]

Fletch knows what he’s doing. How many times did we blow it open or make a comeback during the second half of games the last two years? We usually have superior speed and conditioning to other teams. We don’t need to have all of our guys looking like jacked bodybuilders. Basketball is still very much an endurance sport too. Our guys should be trained similar to 400 hurdlers with more emphasis on strength and lateral quickness but nothing too extreme.

Side note: I also like the timed mile they do before the start of the season. Guys are usually running in the high 4s to low 5s with a few exceptions for some bigs. That’s about exactly where they should be for high level D1 basketball shape.

 

[WeWillWhen]

So, is Riley no longer considering the NBL option?

 

[grue2]

I thought altgeld's post was a nice, drawn out, subtle, troll. Then these people started posting serious follow ups that seem to have taken the original note seriously. I'm so confused. Were you serious Altgeld?

I have noticed that our bad injury luck was endless -- until Fletch came on board.

 

[IllinoisIntegrity]

Thanks for your awesome post we're lucky to have people willing have a different opinion and the courage to say it even when they don't think it's popular. Aside from some insiders how do we know how good Fletch is? But what does come across on this message board is that he is an amazing team player that has that rare ability to get through to the players he's coaching. That human element that he has is rare and immensely valuable. He sounds like he is incredibly accessible and the work he puts into these recruiting side of things is huge.

Yes, it takes a lot of courage to anonymously post on a college basketball blog.

Can’t wait to see which of our highly effective staff members someone will have the courage to criticize tomorrow.

 

[BashCtIllini]

People on here are far too impressed with 6 packs and biceps. If I'm judging Fletch it's on, are guys improving their vertical leap? Are they improving their short shuttle times? or whatever quickness drills they use. Are they able to perform x number of suicides without keeling over? Every one of us is strong enough to shoot a 3. There's no bench press at half court, what helps you perform better on the court is better power, quickness, and explosiveness. And since I don't know the answer to those questions, I don't really worry about it.

 

[HTime]

When thinking about Fletch I think of Ron Harper and wonder what Fletch could have done for him. Or looking at Iowa’s players etc and think Fletch might have it right.