Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread

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#576      
RabidDawgClassic
illini0440 said:
I come back and all of a sudden Fletch doesn’t know what he’s doing?
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0440 be like:

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#580      
chrisRunner7
CHK71185 said:
Sooooo...if and when we get Riley...what will be the next thing this board complains about/questions? Lol
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I think we are ecstatic for about three hours, then the glass-half-full folks will start fretting about whether a current player will try to surprise transfer in July because they don't think they'll get enough minutes
 
#585      
Geno33
Illinilosch said:
I agree, this is a very good comparison especially after I watched the WR video highlites.

I saw MPJ play a couple times in person back in high school. Thought he was a brilliantly young talent back then. There was no doubt he would play in the league when he was just a sophomore.

I feel WR has the exact same trajectory. The talent with this kid just oozes out of his pores. He looks like he could literally play 3 different positions at any given time.

GET THIS KID UNDERWOOD!!!
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Michael Porters team played in a tournament in Warrenton where I live, went and watched him play. He was definitely on another level.
 
#586      
Illiniguy13
altgeld88 said:
TL; DR: We have no idea. S&C programs appear to waste incredible amounts of time and resources and leave untold amounts of athlete performance on the table. These guys should be lifting heavy, which will enable them to couple their genetically-gifted neuromuscular efficiency (explosiveness) with immense force production, armor them against injury, and realize their physical potential. It won't happen anytime soon. Then they should go practice basketball. Skip the BOSU balls.

******************

I'll post what will certainly be an unpopular response (lol, who am I kidding... I'm gonna get dogpiled): we have no reason to believe he's a star in absolute terms though he may well be relative to other S&C coaches simply because the bar is set so low. I'll note in advance that I've never seen his training plan, and have only seen the social media snippets of guys in the weight room that the DIA publicizes. It seems clear, however, that a lot of performance is being left on the table, and our guys could benefit by being much stronger.

Any D-1 athlete is a genetic freak residing at the extreme end of the distribution of neuromuscular efficiency. Someone has a 35-inch vertical jump (or a 48-inch one if he's Darrell Griffith or MJ) because he's crazy efficient at recruiting motor neurons to contract muscles. It's not something that can be trained except at a very small margin (adding perhaps a couple %.) Bring these guys in at 18 and you can literally do little more than feed them and they will grow, get bigger by the time they're 22, and look like gods throughout.

D-1 players are on the court partly because they're incredibly explosive, a.k.a. "powerful." (In extremis: TSJ.) That power is a function of the force they can apply over a distance in a unit of time. "Time" is the explosiveness variable and (e.g., the SVJ) isn't amenable to training. But you can train the force component: lift heavy weights. Anything less is a suboptimal approach to using the limited time available for training. SVJ, agility, etc... can't be trained for meaningful gain. Strength certainly can, for years on end.

I may be wrong about what Adam is doing with the guys; however, from the social media I see, it's not lifting heavy weights. It's lifting fairly light weights, balancing on BOSU balls while asymmetrically loaded with dumbbells, and other suboptimal exercises.

I'm unaware of a single basketball program in which the S&C coach trains players meaningfully for strength. Everyone on our team should be at the very least squatting 500 and deadlifting 600. Probably much more. (Kofi probably should have been pulling upwards of 800.) The development of that kind of force production combined with innate neuromuscular efficiency would maximize their physical potential. It would also make them a great deal more difficult to push around on the court and bullet proof their joints (esp. knees) from injury. It would make them stronger, more powerful, more resilient athletes.

(Let's dismiss the strawman here that this will make them into fat, sluggish, mediocre linemen. No, it won't. Or, horrors, "musclebound.")

The problem is that head coaches aren't informed consumers of S&C programs, and so an S&C coach who wants to keep his job will never risk training his athletes to lift properly (and, frankly, few if any S&C coaches appear to understand how to lift properly.) Mark Rippetoe of Starting Strength fame has written at great length about this topic for many, many years. (This article from 2016 for example. Yeah, it's long.) The barrier to entry here is understanding the mechanics of safe, efficient lifting, learning to coach it, and teaching lifters how to manage psychologically when the load gets really heavy. It's an acquired skill that takes time and intelligence. So instead we get high-volume sets at light weight, relatively light "squatlifting" with a trap bar, and "heavy squats will injure your knees!" Yeah, they will: if you do them incorrectly. If you do them correctly, which is fairly easy to learn, they'll write you an insurance policy against torn ACLs.

As for endurance, strength is an incredibly persistent adaptation. Getting up the cardio conditioning curve is a pretty quick process: we gain and lose that capacity quickly. Getting up that curve when you're very strong is effortless. Adam may well be making our guys relatively stronger than the competition, so they're better conditioned. I have no idea, of course, because I don't know how he trains them. It's obvious, however, that they don't lift meaningfully, and so a lot of potential goes unrealized. That's a shame.

It's incredible that these programs leave so much on the table where athlete performance is concerned. It's such low-hanging fruit it's unbelievable that it's ignored. I have little confidence, however, that it will change anytime soon.
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He really said TLDR and then posted the Declaration of Independence 😭
 
#587      
alexander58
Illini8420 said:
Fletch knows what he’s doing. How many times did we blow it open or make a comeback during the second half of games the last two years? We usually have superior speed and conditioning to other teams. We don’t need to have all of our guys looking like jacked bodybuilders. Basketball is still very much an endurance sport too. Our guys should be trained similar to 400 hurdlers with more emphasis on strength and lateral quickness but nothing too extreme.

Side note: I also like the timed mile they do before the start of the season. Guys are usually running in the high 4s to low 5s with a few exceptions for some bigs. That’s about exactly where they should be for high level D1 basketball shape.
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I am NOT questioning the ability of Fletch to make bigger stronger athletes. In my completely uneducated opinion, it seems to be working just fine. But how do you compare it to other programs objectively?
 
#590      
SVSTORM
altgeld88 said:
TL; DR: We have no idea. S&C programs appear to waste incredible amounts of time and resources and leave untold amounts of athlete performance on the table. These guys should be lifting heavy, which will enable them to couple their genetically-gifted neuromuscular efficiency (explosiveness) with immense force production, armor them against injury, and realize their physical potential. It won't happen anytime soon. Then they should go practice basketball. Skip the BOSU balls.

******************

I'll post what will certainly be an unpopular response (lol, who am I kidding... I'm gonna get dogpiled): we have no reason to believe he's a star in absolute terms though he may well be relative to other S&C coaches simply because the bar is set so low. I'll note in advance that I've never seen his training plan, and have only seen the social media snippets of guys in the weight room that the DIA publicizes. It seems clear, however, that a lot of performance is being left on the table, and our guys could benefit by being much stronger.

Any D-1 athlete is a genetic freak residing at the extreme end of the distribution of neuromuscular efficiency. Someone has a 35-inch vertical jump (or a 48-inch one if he's Darrell Griffith or MJ) because he's crazy efficient at recruiting motor neurons to contract muscles. It's not something that can be trained except at a very small margin (adding perhaps a couple %.) Bring these guys in at 18 and you can literally do little more than feed them and they will grow, get bigger by the time they're 22, and look like gods throughout.

D-1 players are on the court partly because they're incredibly explosive, a.k.a. "powerful." (In extremis: TSJ.) That power is a function of the force they can apply over a distance in a unit of time. "Time" is the explosiveness variable and (e.g., the SVJ) isn't amenable to training. But you can train the force component: lift heavy weights. Anything less is a suboptimal approach to using the limited time available for training. SVJ, agility, etc... can't be trained for meaningful gain. Strength certainly can, for years on end.

I may be wrong about what Adam is doing with the guys; however, from the social media I see, it's not lifting heavy weights. It's lifting fairly light weights, balancing on BOSU balls while asymmetrically loaded with dumbbells, and other suboptimal exercises.

I'm unaware of a single basketball program in which the S&C coach trains players meaningfully for strength. Everyone on our team should be at the very least squatting 500 and deadlifting 600. Probably much more. (Kofi probably should have been pulling upwards of 800.) The development of that kind of force production combined with innate neuromuscular efficiency would maximize their physical potential. It would also make them a great deal more difficult to push around on the court and bullet proof their joints (esp. knees) from injury. It would make them stronger, more powerful, more resilient athletes.

(Let's dismiss the strawman here that this will make them into fat, sluggish, mediocre linemen. No, it won't. Or, horrors, "musclebound.")

The problem is that head coaches aren't informed consumers of S&C programs, and so an S&C coach who wants to keep his job will never risk training his athletes to lift properly (and, frankly, few if any S&C coaches appear to understand how to lift properly.) Mark Rippetoe of Starting Strength fame has written at great length about this topic for many, many years. (This article from 2016 for example. Yeah, it's long.) The barrier to entry here is understanding the mechanics of safe, efficient lifting, learning to coach it, and teaching lifters how to manage psychologically when the load gets really heavy. It's an acquired skill that takes time and intelligence. So instead we get high-volume sets at light weight, relatively light "squatlifting" with a trap bar, and "heavy squats will injure your knees!" Yeah, they will: if you do them incorrectly. If you do them correctly, which is fairly easy to learn, they'll write you an insurance policy against torn ACLs.

As for endurance, strength is an incredibly persistent adaptation. Getting up the cardio conditioning curve is a pretty quick process: we gain and lose that capacity quickly. Getting up that curve when you're very strong is effortless. Adam may well be making our guys relatively stronger than the competition, so they're better conditioned. I have no idea, of course, because I don't know how he trains them. It's obvious, however, that they don't lift meaningfully, and so a lot of potential goes unrealized. That's a shame.

It's incredible that these programs leave so much on the table where athlete performance is concerned. It's such low-hanging fruit it's unbelievable that it's ignored. I have little confidence, however, that it will change anytime soon.
Click to expand...
You could have left it at “We have no idea” because you made it very clear with the rest of your post 🤦🏻‍♂️
 
#592      
Uihoop2023!
PepeSilvia said:
I agree with a lot about what you said about lifting heavy and the benefits of doing so but mobility and flexibility work have a huge impact on explosiveness and allowing your body to produce force while moving in a variety of different directions and angles that are necessary while playing basketball.
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I actually saw someone like efrem winters get to bulky...thought he lost athleticism
 
#593      
americanoutlaw11
rtbritt said:
Serious Schitts Creek GIF by CBC

Honestly, I am not a guru when it comes to lifting, but when I was in school, we all thought the 1 rep max was cool and where it was at, but I would guess that 1 rep max pretty much did nothing but cause me pains in my older age.

Maybe my sarcasm meter is broken, and you are saying exactly that, or maybe you just know more than me and that 1-3 rep max is actually important??
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Serious as can be. Lifting heavy weights at high speeds for low reps will add a manageable but not extreme amount of muscle- great for someone who spends a ton of time running. It will also build their athleticism way more than the alternative. I’m not talking about grinding out 1rep maxes every day… explosively handling 80-92.5% of one’s 1RM in that rep range will do the trick. No grinding reps- ever.
Due to the lower volume your body doesn’t get as sore so you can devote more resources to training to your sport… it’s hard to shoot 3’s for a few days when you were doing sets of squats for 20 even if the weight was lighter… you can hit 6x3 for 80-85% of your max working on moving the bar as fast as possible- lifting with intention- and then literally go start shooting the minute you rack the bar with virtually zero negative impact.

I can’t remember who I’m stealing this from, but “Talent level being the same the strongest athlete will always win.” Don’t overthink it. Being strong in high rep ranges is great for building muscle… if your body needs to know how to produce immediate force and then regroup, it’s a poor strategy.

A little but of high rep work is needed for overall muscular balance and joint/tendon health. In the powerlifting world it’s known as “assistance work” and it’s taken pretty seriously. But in my experience I’d say the 80/20 rule applies pretty heavily for athletic training.
 
#597      
STL Illini
I have no opinion of what’s ideal regarding S&C for high level D1 athletes.
I trust Fletch has his reputation for excellence based on limitless opinions from people in the know.
That’s all I really care about on the topic.
On a separate note, I’m not going to pile on to Altgeld. The guy has an opinion and expressed it. Many may disagree, and that’s perfectly fine. In Altgeld’s defense, I find him to be one of the top 10 posters on this board that I enjoy reading. His writing and story telling is second to none. His passion for the O&B is certain.
I’m not gonna tag him as some random, anonymous poster based on one post.
Thumbs up to you Altgeld for your contributions to Loyalty.
 
#598      
Bbuck21
AZILL said:
Yes, yes she is..... eos....... and although I'm older and probably shouldn't even be responding to a post like this.... Seems like a gal you would probably be spending 30/40/50th anniversaries with and celebrating the Orange & Blue the entire time!!! 😉
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Good recovery. You're braver than me and I appreciate it.
 
#600      
Bbuck21
Haven't checked in for a few days. What the Hell happened? And why hasn't @Dan started a new thread dedicated to S&C? Does Rival's have a rating site for S&C coaches? They could use "before and after" pictures as click bait.
 
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