...a direct compliment to Fletch!
Terrence Shannon Jr. to have jersey honored at State Farm Center
TheDukeUIUC
- Twin Cities, MN
Technically, TSJ could have still been suspended if the OSCR process has played out and that process had deemed him to be a danger to the student body. Essentially, the Lawless decision is that TSJ should have been offered due process before the suspension, but the three body panel didn't give TSJ a chance to represent himself and the OSCR process hadn't completed, so at no point did she think he was offered a fair opportunity to defend himself, thus invalidating the suspension as it adversely affects the appearance of his innocence.
To your point about someone guilty could sue to still play, that's exactly the type of scenario they need to account for in whatever process they decide to implement in place of this zero tolerance instant suspension. Not sure how they balance that when a police investigation may be in the early phases.
The challenging part of this issue/policy is that in most situations, formal charges aren't issued unless there is sufficient evidence. This false accusation just happened to come across the desk of a worthless DA looking for publicity. Had this followed the normal legal process, these policies would have been fine.
You don't/didn't see anyone asking for the policy to change after Kansas dropped Morris for his charge that was latter dropped because they knew he did it and it wasn't the first instance with him.
You don't/didn't see anyone asking for the policy to change after Kansas dropped Morris for his charge that was latter dropped because they knew he did it and it wasn't the first instance with him.
TheDukeUIUC
- Twin Cities, MN
Yes, this was absolutely complicated by the Kansas DA charging him without first having a grand jury determine if charges were warranted. It was handled in the complete opposite order to the way Pop Isaacs was accused of rape but no formal charges were filed, so his eligibility was never in question.
This ^^^^^^^^^^. Because NIL created various property rights, TSJ was owed due process which was not granted. I think universities have been more conservative because due process would almost essentially require them to develop their own adjudication process running in tandem with our legal system.
I think a real key in this case was that the student panel (or whatever panel) could not call (under oath) any witnesses that mattered and counsel for TSJ could not cross-examine any witnesses that mattered. The result could have been very different had TSJ been charged with committing the same offense on the UIUC campus. Due process would have been possible here, while it really didn't work long distance.
lstewart53x3
- Scottsdale, Arizona
Just arrived. Now I’ve just gotta get a nice frame for it.
Once you're done reading it, can you please let us all know how to think like a Roman Emperor? Probably some good nuggets of knowledge in there.
lstewart53x3
- Scottsdale, Arizona
Excellent book! It’s based on the Stoic teachings of Marcus Aurelius. I’ve tried reading Meditations in the past and my simple brain had a hard time making it through. This explains Stoic philosophy in a very easy to understand way.
My main takeaway from the book is just how HARD it was to live back then. Makes me very grateful for the modern life we enjoy today.
skyIdub
Winged Warrior
You must not have taken Reading Between The Lines 101 in school?
the national
- the Front Range
Hang it proud. Hang it high.
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
This is a good and important point, and one of the big flaws in the court injunction was acting like UI had any ability to meaningfully investigate a case that occurred hundreds of miles from Champaign in another state.
But even if the events occur on campus, there's still a question of time.
Must a formal due process adjudicatory procedure happen before, say, Kendrick Nunn or Jamar Smith can be prevented from playing? What about a situation like Jereme Richmond where the issues weren't even really legal, the team just didn't want him around anymore?
To say that a worker (which is what the players are in this context) has the right to be PAID pending a due process adjudication against them is one thing, and something that's widely agreed upon in a number of contexts. And that would mean scholarship money, NIL payments, room and board benefits, etc for a college athlete.
But the way in which the Shannon injunction used online mock drafts and hocus pocus about NIL to transform that right to be paid into a right to ACTIVELY PLAY hostile to the wishes of the program (whether those were the program's *actual* wishes in the TSJ case specifically is irrelevant, it's a question of the legal principle) was completely bizarre and unjustifiable to me.
Either that principle is going to get broken or schools are going to be forced to play players who are much more obviously criminal than TSJ ever was.
All's well that ends well for us, and the injunction wound up doing justice in a roundabout way, but the reasoning of the opinion was extremely shoddy.
That is (of course) false. He would be fired if he did that.
Whitman believes his duty is to uphold university policy, and that's what he did.
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
Whitman, as he does with everything, played his hand with a thoughtful sense of what his actual job is an what his actual interests are.
Raw intellectual horsepower is common among powerful and successful people. Sound strategic thinking is rare. We've got a gem in JW.
I don't follow you here. Shannon demonstrated a clear risk of major financial loss as a result of being denied due process. That's not hocus-pocus.
I thought his case was a clear loser prior to the hearing, but the more I think about it, the more I think the judge got it exactly right. Given the reports that policies have been modified everywhere in compliance with that opinion suggests that the powers-that-be think so as well.
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ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
Draft positioning/NBA salary as "compensation" or something "earned" by the mere fact of playing college basketball just isn't correct though.
Players have left college to focus on draft prep rather than play before, calculating that to be in the best interests of themselves as a financial asset.
And of course had he played poorly he would have LOST value as a professional. And assuming the same not guilty verdict, his draft stock would not have been harmed by being suspended as much as you probably think. He played great at the end of the year and left a good impression in scouts minds, no question, but he had been showing that early too. The fact that his heater meant so much to our program and its history and tourney drought means ZERO, ZILCH to pro scouts.
The injunction opinion makes "draft stock" into something that gets accrued in equal discrete increments as college games are played, as it if were like a weekly salary. That simply doesn't make any sense.
And then the opinion conflated that with NIL earnings, which again doesn't make any sense given that TSJ can collect his NIL money without playing, exactly the "suspended with pay" analogy that fits with other contexts.
Well policies have to follow the way judges are interpreting the rules, so of course they're going to respond to this opinion. That doesn't mean it's correct.
While I believe the outcome of the ruling was proper, my problem the argument and ruling was that it seems that the financial loss was the reasoning. That implies that a student athlete in a sport where they are just getting a scholarship could have their due process rights violated. The financial loss portion should arise if the student athlete's rights are violated, and they are seeking damages.
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
My overriding feeling remains just wonder and gratitude that we, Illinois Basketball fans, were held harmless from the bad decisions of the Kansas DA.
TSJ has cleared his name and secured his future, but not without enormous hardship.
We didn't suffer anything. We got our superstar back and had such a wonderful, historic, program-restoring season in a way that was absolutely unfathomable the day the charges emerged.
That doesn't mean it's undeserved. It's the opposite. No fanbase on earth deserved a break like that more than us. But it was a miraculous outcome, and I always just feel the need to give voice to that. For once the nut punch missed and it all went Illinois' way.
TSJ has cleared his name and secured his future, but not without enormous hardship.
We didn't suffer anything. We got our superstar back and had such a wonderful, historic, program-restoring season in a way that was absolutely unfathomable the day the charges emerged.
That doesn't mean it's undeserved. It's the opposite. No fanbase on earth deserved a break like that more than us. But it was a miraculous outcome, and I always just feel the need to give voice to that. For once the nut punch missed and it all went Illinois' way.
There is an old saying that bad cases make bad law. TSJs case was a bad case - a Kansas DA charging him on a case where the police did not really investigate and where they had no real chance to obtain a conviction. Certainly, a judge is going to have a hard time keeping a player from playing under the facts and circumstances that this case presented. However, granting a right to play is not going to be the right decision in most cases where a player is charged - there is going to have been a real investigation and some corroborating physical or other evidence. The process that the U of I had in place did not allow due process or otherwise provide any substantive review of the case against TSJ - I mean, if he was not allowed to play under the prior process, was a player that is charged with a serious crime ever going to be allowed to play. Crafting a process that allows due process while not giving a guilty player the right to play is going to be difficult. How can you conduct a hearing during a time when a player is being investigated and prosecuted for a crime - is his lawyer going to want him on the stand giving testimony and being cross-examined (especially if that testimony would be available to the criminal case prosecutors) and are we going to have the complainant identified and potentially harassed by fans? Is that process confidential, and what if someone involved leaks info? Whatever process they set up I believe has to be based upon the assumption that the police and DA are doing their job properly in accordance with professional standards, but it must give the player the opportunity to establish that this assumption is not correct.
Like you said, this entire fiasco also makes you wonder if Whitman's policy, that took these decisions out of the DIA, have denied other athletes the opportunity to play notwithstanding innocence. In addition to not having the financial loss that the fed court found to be protected by due process, they wouldn't have had TSJs resources to challenge their suspensions. I could see lawsuits against U of I by some of these athletes, now that it has been satisfied that the process did not meet constitutional requirements.
Good for TSJ. Now good luck to him in NBA.
I think the decision to hang his number in the rafters is an example of Whitman’s overall pragmatic and common sensical, for lack of better terms, approach to his job. Does what he believes is right, not necessarily just what “the book” says. Hope he stays for a while
I think the decision to hang his number in the rafters is an example of Whitman’s overall pragmatic and common sensical, for lack of better terms, approach to his job. Does what he believes is right, not necessarily just what “the book” says. Hope he stays for a while
Fun fact. My dad wanted to name me Marcus Aurelius (last name), but my mom shut it down several times.
Imagine what my NIL opportunities could have been!
Amateur hour..... I want to see the report that Valdez has been voted/kicked out of office and stripped of her license to practice law...