NBA Draft

jamarvelous31 said:

Wow, this is another 'what is your actual point'?

To put it in NBA terms, he is a max player who will be your 3rd best scoring option (if you hope to win). He is not a dominant defensive player, ball handler, or scorer. He's a swiss army knife that's really good at all of that. But there's a reason why he just withdrew from a weak draft.

Claiming that we are not stacking top talent when we will have 5 top 60 HS players & a projected 25/6 international 1st is ignorant. I assume this will be the most top 60 RSCI players IL has had on it's roster in decades.

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I think this is a great team from a talent perspective, so don't get me wrong. But my point is that we are not at a spot in the program where we can get a guy like Booth to come here without him knowing that Coleman is out. I think other programs can pull that off.

And yes we are talented, but we aren't stacked like other teams are. And please stop talking about HS rankings for guys who have multiple years playing. Guys get judged on what they've done.

As to CoHawk and the draft, who cares. There are lots of guys who are great college players that we'd all love to have on our team but who don't get drafted. It's simple. We'd be a better team if we had CoHawk. It's also real simple that for a variety of reasons that didn't happen and I'm not really "blaming" anyone, other than pointing out that perhaps other teams can pull off adding a top 10 portal guy into a team that's already pretty loaded. We unfortunately, for some reason, can't.

Just as I expected, a lot of absolute asshat Illini fans making fools of themselves on the Interweb going at Coleman for this decision that anybody with two eyes and a brain could have seen coming.

The second Osobor got what he did from Wash, there was a 100% chance Coleman was going back to school for 24-25. A helluva Illini who at this point owes this university zero, zilch, nada after leading the beloved to their best season in 20 years.

You the man CoHawk- I’ll be pulling for you wholeheartedly.

IMPE Legend said:

Plus, I have freely said that we should be a good team next year, and maybe great if people gel. That doesn't make letting Coleman leave less of a failure. Both can be true. Losing another piece of continuity is huge with the amount of roster turnover we have had. And when that guy was the 2nd or 3rd best overall player on an Elite 8 team I find it comical that people continue to act like its not a failure.

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Coleman was never planning on coming back. He's stated this explicitly on many occasions. If there is a "failure" here, it was your failure to have reasonable expectations about how this was going to play out. It actually tells us very little about the staff (despite your protestations to the contrary).

Actually, scratch that. It tells us that our staff is resilient. Instead of bellyaching and pining after something that was not to be, they got to work putting together a heckuva roster. That's not a failure. That's what success looks like.

The only thing about this situation that will break me is if we wind up facing his team in the Dance next Spring. Otherwise, thanks for everything, Coleman, and see you at the team reunion in ten years.

IMPE Legend said:

Do you think that we could find a comparable piece to Booth right now? Nothing about his numbers or shooting percentages seem like a guy you had to pounce on.

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I would hope that the staff evaluates players based on a lot more than numbers or shooting percentages. I'm fact, I hope it's the last thing they care about. Raw skills and character don't show up in Torvik's ratings but that's a huge part of what they look for in building a roster

IMPE Legend said:

But in my mind it all goes back to why both sides apparently knew it was time to move on. Few of the answers are positive for the team. Playing time and opportunity were there. So it seems like it was a lack of money(investment) in a player who had been here for 4 years or Hawkins saw our system/program as worse than his options(which are unknowns at this point). Those don't sound positive and I think simply saying they knew it was time to move on is avoiding looking at why they knew it.

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It has nothing to do with either side wanting to part ways. It has everything to do with timing. Staff needed to build a roster without Coleman because he was 100% committed to draft. Now they built that roster and it would be challenging to squeeze Coleman in. I don't think it's purely about lack of NIL, maybe we still have boosters willing to pony up, but let's face it: someone is going to grossly overpay for Coleman's services. I frankly wouldn't feel right asking our generous boosters to do so. By waiting until the last moment Coleman is able to get a huge bag and go to a team that has a need for him, which was his backup plan all along, and we all know it, and we're okay with it and happy for him. To call it a failure is Patty-esque

AND FURTHERMORE, the fact that the staff was able to bring back Ayo and Kofi isn't diminished because it was in the pre-NIL days. They came back because of the all the things you're saying the staff fails at, they didn't transfer, and they didn't need bags of cash to induce them to return. Loyalty. I-L-L !

BretMyBeachHouse said:

I think this is a great team from a talent perspective, so don't get me wrong. But my point is that we are not at a spot in the program where we can get a guy like Booth to come here without him knowing that Coleman is out. I think other programs can pull that off.

And yes we are talented, but we aren't stacked like other teams are. And please stop talking about HS rankings for guys who have multiple years playing. Guys get judged on what they've done.

As to CoHawk and the draft, who cares. There are lots of guys who are great college players that we'd all love to have on our team but who don't get drafted. It's simple. We'd be a better team if we had CoHawk. It's also real simple that for a variety of reasons that didn't happen and I'm not really "blaming" anyone, other than pointing out that perhaps other teams can pull off adding a top 10 portal guy into a team that's already pretty loaded. We unfortunately, for some reason, can't.

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I think, am maybe I’m only speaking for myself here, that we just did what you are asking for. We retooled so much better BECAUSE we let Coleman run his course. I hate to say this but we would be bottom feeders had we held out hope for his return. What we fished from the portal was quite impressive. Few programs could have done what Brad and Co did. I’m standing here pleased. Now he’s gotta coach them into a team. But from the NBA perspective, what are college teams to do? You can’t live and die on hope, otherwise you might wither on the vine. I much prefer drawing a line in the sand and being decisive. We are doing that.

And we have Orlando. This will be a good team.

Combo said:

We had insiders tell us there was a specific donor for Coleman and (and one for Domask as well ) that would pay all their NIL regardless of what our NIL in aggregate did (supposedly they personally liked each of those two young men beyond talent on the court). If that's true, the mystery donor could still pay Coleman's way. However, it's reasonable to think if there was such a person, they may have changed their mind given who we've added and how much inflation there has been in acquiring talent over the last two months.

The second bolded point I obviously agree with you. I'm guessing BU and Coleman and maybe even his family spoke about this at season's end. If Coleman couldn't make a reasonably firm commitment to coming back, BU logically had to recruit under the assumption that he was gone. Which is exactly what he did and overall we did pretty well (anyone that complains about adding Ivisic, Booth, Hum, and White (in addition to Morez and Ty) to our front court is a malcontent. Unlikely any of those will be All-Americans next year, but they are all guys who could start at good programs.

The way both sides (the coaching start and Coleman) handled this was perfectly rational from both sides.

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He was 2nd on the team in assists but also 3rd in turnovers. 1st in stocks but also fouls per game. Great on catch and shoot 3s but poor on dribble 3s.

Am I a crazy person for remembering Coleman as a really great glue guy but not THE GUY and the guy who often times had to be calmed/slowed down because of his immaturity?

DB11Headband said:

Just as I expected, a lot of absolute asshat Illini fans making fools of themselves on the Interweb going at Coleman for this decision that anybody with two eyes and a brain could have seen coming.

The second Osobor got what he did from Wash, there was a 100% chance Coleman was going back to school for 24-25. A helluva Illini who at this point owes this university zero, zilch, nada after leading the beloved to their best season in 20 years.

You the man CoHawk- I’ll be pulling for you wholeheartedly.

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Oh and

I think a known commodity in CH would have been better for next year’s team than the unknowns of Booth, Hum, and White.

The coaches may be looking 2 years ahead though…and CH won’t be here then. So they were willing to move on. Though, there is a risk this team doesn’t stay together and “projecting out 2 years” isn’t a strategy they should have tried. But that’s for a different discussion.

In the end, if there was a way to keep CoHawk at Illinois, the staff probably should have done what it takes to make it happen. If they could have, but didn’t, it’s a failure considering the unknowns for next year. If CoHawk was never going to come back, so be it. The end result is the same.

Here is my biggest grief with this whole situation…whatever the reason/details (it doesn’t matter) we are losing a GREAT player to a team that can pay more or is more primed to make a championship run. That’s the narrative.

The perception of that (from the outside looking in, not from what we think we know on this board) shows that Illinois is not in the elite group at the top of the CBB food chain. We are still a program that can be farmed for our talent, even talent that’s been here 4 years.

And that’s not very reassuring…hopefully BU can keep it from happening again so as to show this is an anomaly and not the norm.

Point-Illinois said:

I think a known commodity in CH would have been better for next year’s team than the unknowns of Booth, Hum, and White.

The coaches may be looking 2 years ahead though…and CH won’t be here then. So they were willing to move on. Though, there is a risk this team doesn’t stay together and “projecting out 2 years” isn’t a strategy they should have tried. But that’s for a different discussion.

In the end, if there was a way to keep CoHawk at Illinois, the staff probably should have done what it takes to make it happen. If they could have, but didn’t, it’s a failure considering the unknowns for next year. If CoHawk was never going to come back, so be it. The end result is the same.

Here is my biggest grief with this whole situation…whatever the reason/details (it doesn’t matter) we are losing a GREAT player to a team that can pay more or is more primed to make a championship run. That’s the narrative.

The perception of that (from the outside looking in, not from what we think we know on this board) shows that Illinois is not in the elite group at the top of the CBB food chain. We are still a program that can be farmed for our talent, even talent that’s been here 4 years.

And that’s not very reassuring…hopefully BU can keep it from happening again so as to show this is an anomaly and not the norm.

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Maybe...just maybe...Coleman Hawkins wants to be utilized differently. Have you ever thought about that? Have you ever thought that perhaps he doesn't wish to play the 5 anymore against the Zach Edeys of the world? Maybe he wants to be part of a different offense that enhances his strengths even more than Illinois can.

I do not believe this is just a money grab on Coleman's part. I believe he was tired of being utilized in a way that didn't totally play to all of his strengths. I think as much as he got abused by Zach Edey and Donovan Clingan wore him down mentally. He wanted to play more alongside Dainja but Underwood had other plans and Coleman doesn't want anymore repeats of this

If Coleman cannot get a certain guarantee of a draft pick after 4 yrs of development at the U of I, then maybe it's time for him to go elsewhere and see if he can increase his draft stock in another system that can take advantage of his strengths more than Underwood could. For some reason, I think he has another level he can reach but his ceiling was limited here

BretMyBeachHouse said:

I think this is a great team from a talent perspective, so don't get me wrong. But my point is that we are not at a spot in the program where we can get a guy like Booth to come here without him knowing that Coleman is out. I think other programs can pull that off.

And yes we are talented, but we aren't stacked like other teams are. And please stop talking about HS rankings for guys who have multiple years playing. Guys get judged on what they've done.

As to CoHawk and the draft, who cares. There are lots of guys who are great college players that we'd all love to have on our team but who don't get drafted. It's simple. We'd be a better team if we had CoHawk. It's also real simple that for a variety of reasons that didn't happen and I'm not really "blaming" anyone, other than pointing out that perhaps other teams can pull off adding a top 10 portal guy into a team that's already pretty loaded. We unfortunately, for some reason, can't.

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You can't have it both ways. 'Stacked' has to be defined somehow & you seem to be dinging us for our current roster but also for not stacking on Coleman.

1-We either brought in 5 top 60 RSCI players + some intriguing internationals or players that averaged 52 ppg total at their last stop, a top 30 freshman (a U18 team USA player ), 2 promising Internationals (1 a multi year MVP) to a roster with a U18 USA player & DGL.

2-This ISNT an established roster & that will be part of the fun.

3- IL just reached the E8 for the first time in ~20 years and our coach is widely seen as top 2 in the b10. Why not stop being such a wet blanket and focus on the positives of 1&2?

DB11Headband said:

Oh and

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Not sure I see that with Karaban returning, but who knows?

Point-Illinois said:

I think a known commodity in CH would have been better for next year’s team than the unknowns of Booth, Hum, and White.

The coaches may be looking 2 years ahead though…and CH won’t be here then. So they were willing to move on. Though, there is a risk this team doesn’t stay together and “projecting out 2 years” isn’t a strategy they should have tried. But that’s for a different discussion.

In the end, if there was a way to keep CoHawk at Illinois, the staff probably should have done what it takes to make it happen. If they could have, but didn’t, it’s a failure considering the unknowns for next year. If CoHawk was never going to come back, so be it. The end result is the same.

Here is my biggest grief with this whole situation…whatever the reason/details (it doesn’t matter) we are losing a GREAT player to a team that can pay more or is more primed to make a championship run. That’s the narrative.

The perception of that (from the outside looking in, not from what we think we know on this board) shows that Illinois is not in the elite group at the top of the CBB food chain. We are still a program that can be farmed for our talent, even talent that’s been here 4 years.

And that’s not very reassuring…hopefully BU can keep it from happening again so as to show this is an anomaly and not the norm.

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Oh stop it.

Coleman was a really good Illini. He deserves the bag. Would you put him in the top 20 of the last 20 years? Personality wise for sure, but playing wise he's firmly behind a lot of great players.

Underwood deserves the benefit of the doubt and we can't !!!!! about last year's PG miss and claim that we should have held a starting PF spot for a player that told everyone who would listen he didn't want to come back.

Don't know why anyone is acting surprised, he already ruled out coming back in this interview two weeks ago.

Wow, some of y'all are whack....! This was a mutually agreed upon happening by C.Hawkins and the staff. I'm amazed at how many of you pull quips, and conjectures from all the stuff going on or said since the season ended and want to quote those as if they are Canon!! Things change EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. My goodness!! I hope this isn't how you live your lives and/or run your business/careers. CHILL OUT! This is the PORTAL ERA!!! Get used to it! Love CH, I hope he does extremely well. But, Illinois Basketball, AND Colemen Hawkins, must move forward!

jamarvelous31 said:

Oh stop it.

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Na I’m good. No need to snap back, this is simply people having a discussion. A little courtesy goes a long way.

jamarvelous31 said:

Coleman was a really good Illini. He deserves the bag. Would you put him in the top 20 of the last 20 years? Personality wise for sure, but playing wise he's firmly behind a lot of great players.

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That’s not the argument, though. We aren’t talking about his value compared to Dee, BP, Ayo, Kofi, or TSJ. (Though he might still make top 20 of the last 20 years, we had some dark times then) We’re talking about his value to schools fielding teams for the ‘24-‘25 CBB season. From early reports, that value is very high. “Great player” does not always equate to “go-to player” and apparently some potentially top teams think CoHawk can be a great player for them, possibly make them championship contenders. Why wasn’t Illinois one of them? If CoHawk informed BU he had no intentions of coming back from the get-go, it was all an easy decision. And I said as much at the end of the third paragraph in my post.

jamarvelous31 said:

Underwood deserves the benefit of the doubt and we can't !!!!! about last year's PG miss and claim that we should have held a starting PF spot for a player that told everyone who would listen he didn't want to come back.

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I didn’t mention anything about the PG situation from last year but I will say that you don’t have to hold a spot for him. Most likely, the teams that are contacting him now also didn’t hold a spot for him for the past 2 months, but they are finding ways to make room for him now. So it is possible.

Having said all that, the main point of my post is the optics. CoHawk may have let BU know early on it was 100% draft and BU may have said “Awesome, but heads up, I have to recruit like you already got drafted” and CoHawk said “Yup, hopefully I won’t need it, but there’s always the transfer portal” and BU agreed. Basically they knew CoHawk was gone but both were praying it was due to the draft.

Now we’re at the nightmare scenario where CoHawk isn’t living his NBA dream and BU has to “lose” this awesome player/culture guy to the portal. To us, we understand how it could have ended up this way.

To the CBB world (media/fans/recruits/possible future players) which isn’t as invested in our program…we lost an incredible Swiss Army knife and culture guy (a guy that could DEFINITELY help our team) to a team that can pay more or a team primed for a championship run.

Either way it shows where we stand in the CBB hierarchy and BU needs to keep it from ever being a trend.

Point-Illinois said:

....

To the CBB world (media/fans/recruits/possible future players) which isn’t as invested in our program…we lost an incredible Swiss Army knife and culture guy (a guy that could DEFINITELY help our team) to a team that can pay more or a team primed for a championship run.

Either way it shows where we stand in the CBB hierarchy and BU needs to keep it from ever being a trend.

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OK. Does this imply that other programs navigated this crazy offseason much better than we did? Others, perhaps. Most, no.
I hope someone here can show me programs that are handling this significantly better than we are.

We lost a lot of great people due to the vagaries of the new normal. Sure, that sucks but it's the reality of the situation. BU and staff saw the writing on the wall and determined that they need to be prepared to reload every year going forward. This is how professionals operate... Players and their entourage need to understand this and know that you must increase your own value every day or you may need to move on.

I hope 2024 is rip-off-the-bandaid offseason. I trust BU will navigate these waters as well as anyone. I trust he'll recruit players who embrace this mindset and consistently put a great product on the floor.

Some players will thrive in this new era. Others will flounder. Some will thrive after moving to a new environment. Some will not.

I, for one, trust JW and BU to do what's best for the program and do it better than almost everyone else.

jamarvelous31 said:

You can't have it both ways. 'Stacked' has to be defined somehow & you seem to be dinging us for our current roster but also for not stacking on Coleman.

1-We either brought in 5 top 60 RSCI players + some intriguing internationals or players that averaged 52 ppg total at their last stop, a top 30 freshman (a U18 team USA player ), 2 promising Internationals (1 a multi year MVP) to a roster with a U18 USA player & DGL.

2-This ISNT an established roster & that will be part of the fun.

3- IL just reached the E8 for the first time in ~20 years and our coach is widely seen as top 2 in the b10. Why not stop being such a wet blanket and focus on the positives of 1&2?

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Why?

Because a few people like you take this CoHawk news as an excuse to trash the guy as you did in the post right above this one.

Illini in OC said:

OK. Does this imply that other programs navigated this crazy offseason much better than we did? Others, perhaps. Most, no.
I hope someone here can show me programs that are handling this significantly better than we are.

We lost a lot of great people due to the vagaries of the new normal. Sure, that sucks but it's the reality of the situation. BU and staff saw the writing on the wall and determined that they need to be prepared to reload every year going forward. This is how professionals operate... Players and their entourage need to understand this and know that you must increase your own value every day or you may need to move on.

I hope 2024 is rip-off-the-bandaid offseason. I trust BU will navigate these waters as well as anyone. I trust he'll recruit players who embrace this mindset and consistently put a great product on the floor.

Some players will thrive in this new era. Others will flounder. Some will thrive after moving to a new environment. Some will not.

I, for one, trust JW and BU to do what's best for the program and do it better than almost everyone else.

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I’m actually right there with you on the last part of your post. In his worst season (since the rebuild was complete) BU ONLY got us a nine seed. Just a few years earlier we would have killed to simply be in the tourney.

BU has earned our trust and I think he’s done a pretty dang good job this offseason.

My comments haven’t been about the full portal goat rope we’ve endured, just this one tactical situation with CoHawk.

This year we lost a lot of minutes to expiring eligibility. BU is replacing it with (mostly) guys that have 2-3 years left. The strategy seems like we do the large scale change out this off-season, then see who transfers out next year (hopefully just a couple) and replace them with more talent and have an experienced super team for the year after that.

Since CoHawk would only be able to be part of the first year (probably some growing pains) that may have helped in his and BU’s peace with the decision to transfer.

DB11Headband said:

Oh and

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X is a cesspool of the worst fans from every program.

Go make that bank Coleman!

And we had the cash if it made sense. The fit isn't there with the guys coming in and this roster is constructed with a Natty vision when Jeremiah comes in. (Which is why not many 1 year transfers)

Bigtex said:

Hawkins was a good Illinois player but far from great.

Much easier to replace Hawkins than Shannon and Domask

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.Hawkins was great. He will be missed and I will be surprised if he can be replaced. Much easier to replace Domask, IMHO.

Bigtex said:

Hawkins was a good Illinois player but far from great.

Much easier to replace Hawkins than Shannon and Domask

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Amateur Athletics.......Whew......$$$$$

Point-Illinois said:

I think a known commodity in CH would have been better for next year’s team than the unknowns of Booth, Hum, and White.

The coaches may be looking 2 years ahead though…and CH won’t be here then. So they were willing to move on. Though, there is a risk this team doesn’t stay together and “projecting out 2 years” isn’t a strategy they should have tried. But that’s for a different discussion.

In the end, if there was a way to keep CoHawk at Illinois, the staff probably should have done what it takes to make it happen. If they could have, but didn’t, it’s a failure considering the unknowns for next year. If CoHawk was never going to come back, so be it. The end result is the same.

Here is my biggest grief with this whole situation…whatever the reason/details (it doesn’t matter) we are losing a GREAT player to a team that can pay more or is more primed to make a championship run. That’s the narrative.

The perception of that (from the outside looking in, not from what we think we know on this board) shows that Illinois is not in the elite group at the top of the CBB food chain. We are still a program that can be farmed for our talent, even talent that’s been here 4 years.

And that’s not very reassuring…hopefully BU can keep it from happening again so as to show this is an anomaly and not the norm.

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Farmed for talent? Caleb Love left North Carolina after starting 95 games and was Pac12 player of the year with someone else last year. Guys are gonna move.

He was a 3rd team all big ten in one poll and honorable mention in the other. I’m a huge Cohawk fan but this wasnt losing TSJ or Kofi.

He can and should do what’s best for him - he will always be an Illini - best of luck to him…and Goode…and dain….these guys gave everything they had to the program for multiple years and were great young men in the community.

JFGsCoffeeMug said:

Coleman was never planning on coming back. He's stated this explicitly on many occasions. If there is a "failure" here, it was your failure to have reasonable expectations about how this was going to play out. It actually tells us very little about the staff (despite your protestations to the contrary).

Actually, scratch that. It tells us that our staff is resilient. Instead of bellyaching and pining after something that was not to be, they got to work putting together a heckuva roster. That's not a failure. That's what success looks like.

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Agree. The other thing is that when putting together the roster, the staff made promises to the kids that committed. I am glad that the staff has the decency to honor those promises about PT rather than recruiting over players that committed early. In a one year scenario, you can want who you want, but if a team wants to recruit honorably and effectively over the years, it has to keep its word. If not, that knowledge will spread like wildfire, and no one will want to commit to the beloved in the early days. They'll say: " Look at the Coleman situation from 2024. I think I'll go to a team where PT is assured." If you were Booth or White, how do you think you'd view Coleman returning to the Illini?