NBA Draft

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#226      
IMPE Legend
IlliniShelt said:
What if...and I'm sure this is a crazy thought...he wants to try something/some place new? 4 years is a long time. I love Coleman and I'd love it if he suited up for us next year but let's all be honest - he could be frustrating too. It's probably best that he and BU enjoyed the good times that they've had and see other people.

Can we be happy for him no matter what he does, given all that he's done for the beloved?
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If he wants to try "something new" then that is again a failure of the staff for not instilling in a guy they've had in the fold for 4 years that his best chance for success is here. A guy seeing an unknown role on an unknown team as being a better option than us is not the ringing endorsement of the program a fan would want to see.

Not sure what being happy for him has to do with anything? I'm looking at what this says about our staff. Their appeal to players and their priorities. Good for Hawkins for going someplace willing to pay him, but people should stop acting like this is some amicable split by two parties that have just decided to go their separate ways for no other reason that mutual love or whatever other bs they are trying to sell. So good for Hawkins. He deserves to be paid. But this is a very poor reflection on the staff. For either not paying him...or for losing a player you are willing to pay but he doesn't have interest in sticking around.
 
#228      
jamarvelous31
IMPE Legend said:
First off...that's 4 and includes a guy likely not starting in Morez. But Humricious seems like the obvious pick there...and I really like him actually. But you know he was a 14 ppg scorer on a 17-18 Evansville team last year right? He isn't some proven superstar. But if you wanted to expand the list to all of our newcomers I would certainly put Booth front and center and include White as well. There are definitely options to be had
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Sorry that this wasn't clear, but w/ what Hawk will get you're losing at least 2 from that list, IL does not have infinite NIL (see Shams quote). Coleman was not a superstar nor is he a top 3 player on a championship team, we tried that and got blown out by a championship team. He is a super glue guy.

Also, a lot of those players getting thrown away (MJJ, Booth, White, etc) are going to be really really good in 26, when we have the best shot at a ship anyways. Admittedly this is assuming we don't have to add 9 more players next year :D

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#230      
IMPE Legend
Combo said:
What don't you get about we had to add players assuming he was not going to return?
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Did we need to add guys like Booth for example? Could we not find a guy who put up 6 ppg and 4 rpg at this point in the process if Hawkins stayed in the draft? Seems like we could have held out a wee bit longer than we did. And there is no reason Hawkins and Humricious couldn't play the 3/4 roles. So his pickup still would have worked. We had the option to prioritize Hawkins and the staff didn't. Seems like a really bad decision when there is such little continuity from an Elite 8 team.
 
#231      
aveseaboy
Ok so does anyone here have an obscenely large sum of cash that they were just saving for a later date? I see no better time than now!
 
#232      
Combo
IMPE Legend said:
Did we need to add guys like Booth for example? Could we not find a guy who put up 6 ppg and 4 rpg at this point in the process if Hawkins stayed in the draft? Seems like we could have held out a wee bit longer than we did. And there is no reason Hawkins and Humricious couldn't play the 3/4 roles. So his pickup still would have worked. We had the option to prioritize Hawkins and the staff didn't. Seems like a really bad decision when there is such little continuity from an Elite 8 team.
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IMO this isn't rational. You make decisions based on what you know at the time. 4-8 weeks ago, we reasonably assumed Hawkins was going to get drafted and if not it was also possible he would go portaling. We also lost Dain and Hansberry. We needed to add front court players and we did just that and we added some good ones.

You guys expect that every move is going to be absolutely perfect (and what's more in hindsight). It's not that way.

Overall we did pretty freakin good with the portal/recruiting. And yes, I'm guessing we're closed to tapped out on NIL. (though I have no inside knowledge).
 
#234      
Bigtex
jamarvelous31 said:
Sorry that this wasn't clear, but w/ what Hawk will get you're losing at least 2 from that list, IL does not have infinite NIL (see Shams quote). Coleman was not a superstar nor is he a top 3 player on a championship team, we tried that and got blown out by a championship team. He is a super glue guy.

Also, a lot of those players getting thrown away (MJJ, Booth, White, etc) are going to be really really good in 26, when we have the best shot at a ship anyways. Admittedly this is assuming we don't have to add 9 more players next year :D

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Hawkins was a good Illinois player but far from great.

Much easier to replace Hawkins than Shannon and Domask
 
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#236      
IlliniShelt
IMPE Legend said:
If he wants to try "something new" then that is again a failure of the staff for not instilling in a guy they've had in the fold for 4 years that his best chance for success is here. A guy seeing an unknown role on an unknown team as being a better option than us is not the ringing endorsement of the program a fan would want to see.

Not sure what being happy for him has to do with anything? I'm looking at what this says about our staff. Their appeal to players and their priorities. Good for Hawkins for going someplace willing to pay him, but people should stop acting like this is some amicable split by two parties that have just decided to go their separate ways for no other reason that mutual love or whatever other bs they are trying to sell. So good for Hawkins. He deserves to be paid. But this is a very poor reflection on the staff. For either not paying him...or for losing a player you are willing to pay but he doesn't have interest in sticking around.
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Yeah these bums that we have coaching have never been able to put a team together or convince really talented guys to come back if that's what is best for them. I'm sure they never had to talk Ayo into coming back or Kofi either...come to think of it, all of the guys who have transferred away from BU have also lit it up everywhere they've been. Shame on our staff though.
 
#237      
jamarvelous31
IMPE Legend said:
Did we need to add guys like Booth for example? Could we not find a guy who put up 6 ppg and 4 rpg at this point in the process if Hawkins stayed in the draft? Seems like we could have held out a wee bit longer than we did. And there is no reason Hawkins and Humricious couldn't play the 3/4 roles. So his pickup still would have worked. We had the option to prioritize Hawkins and the staff didn't. Seems like a really bad decision when there is such little continuity from an Elite 8 team.
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Ok, but you can't really believe that Booth is taking Coleman's NIL right?

Shams just said that Coleman will be a top NIL guy. Booth, White, Davis, Jakstys, Morez's NIL combined probably do not materially impact this. Which is saying something bc MJJ is now a top 30 player...

We just bitched uncontrollably last offseason about leaving holes in the roster (PG), the staff obviously adjusted and up until yesterday with KJ's commitment had people saying this team would suck b/c they were being too patient. I think Underwood deserves the benefit of the doubt, if you feel otherwise then I don't know what to tell you.
 
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#238      
IMK
Coleman's knee injury must be pretty serious; otherwise I don't get why he wouldn't get a 2nd round guarantee. He's got the tools to be a prototypical stretch 5 in the NBA, with his shooting, passing, and defense; he just needs to add weight/muscle.
 
#240      
FairWeatherDieHard
IlliniShelt said:
Yeah these bums that we have coaching have never been able to put a team together or convince really talented guys to come back if that's what is best for them. I'm sure they never had to talk Ayo into coming back or Kofi either...come to think of it, all of the guys who have transferred away from BU have also lit it up everywhere they've been. Shame on our staff though.
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Yeah, if the staff were at all competent they would have left a gaping hole at the 4 so that in the unlikely event that Coleman decided to return to college we would have the pleasure of joining the bidding war with the other teams in desperate need of a starting stretch 4. How awful that we missed out on that delightful experience.
 
#241      
illini0440
IMPE Legend said:
Did we need to add guys like Booth for example? Could we not find a guy who put up 6 ppg and 4 rpg at this point in the process if Hawkins stayed in the draft? Seems like we could have held out a wee bit longer than we did. And there is no reason Hawkins and Humricious couldn't play the 3/4 roles. So his pickup still would have worked. We had the option to prioritize Hawkins and the staff didn't. Seems like a really bad decision when there is such little continuity from an Elite 8 team.
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Hold out for what? Coleman and Illinois had 4 great years together and both sides knew it was time to move on. Also NBA scouts love Booth.
 
#242      
IMPE Legend
IlliniShelt said:
Yeah these bums that we have coaching have never been able to put a team together or convince really talented guys to come back if that's what is best for them. I'm sure they never had to talk Ayo into coming back or Kofi either...come to think of it, all of the guys who have transferred away from BU have also lit it up everywhere they've been. Shame on our staff though.
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Right. Cause replacing all but 2 guys on the roster is totally normal for the staff. They do that all the time. We can definitely compare past years to this one. (insert internet sarcasm notation)

Plus, I have freely said that we should be a good team next year, and maybe great if people gel. That doesn't make letting Coleman leave less of a failure. Both can be true. Losing another piece of continuity is huge with the amount of roster turnover we have had. And when that guy was the 2nd or 3rd best overall player on an Elite 8 team I find it comical that people continue to act like its not a failure.

(And Ayo and Kofi were pre-NIL so nothing about them has anything to do with now.)
 
#243      
Combo
FairWeatherDieHard said:
Yeah, if the staff were at all competent they would have left a gaping hole at the 4 so that in the unlikely event that Coleman decided to return to college we would have the pleasure of joining the bidding war with the other teams in desperate need of a starting stretch 4. How awful that we missed out on that delightful experience.
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I can't like this enough!
 
#244      
BretMyBeachHouse
Combo said:
You guys aren't thinking logically about this. We had to recruit under the assumption that he wouldn't be back (it wouldn't have been prudent to do otherwise). We spent a lot of NIL on multiple guys that he would be competing with for PT (front line players Ivisic, Hum, Booth, White, Morez, as well as returning Ty Rogers). Now, with those guys on board, it wouldn't make much sense for us to pay Coleman big bucks. He may be better than all those guys, but likely not by that much. Those guys are all going to play. And from his POV, he should go for big bucks. Which again, it doesn't behoove us to offer him.

Logically it doesn't add up for him to return. (Unless there is some big donor who happens to personally like Coleman so much that he's willing to match every other team's offer).
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So many rationalizations on this. Sorry I'm picking on you.

First, to your last point, we actually had "insiders" tell us that there were donors ready to pony up dollars.

Second, he's a lot better than pretty much every college portal guy we got and better for our win prospects than every portal guy we got except Boswell.

Third, another poster said he wasn't the 1st or 2nd option on a championship team. Not sure why that even matters. He's a guy that helps you get to a championship which is why a team which is already loaded will be willing to put up big dollars for him. Now whether he thinks that works for his future is another question. 24 mpg and 10 shots on Arkansas might look different to him than 15 shots and 32 mpg at Florida, let's say. No clue what he's thinking.

Fourth, I'm sure this was a mutual agreement. BU probably wanted a firm decision as it entered into the recruitment of the guys we got. Stacking top talent on top of other top talent isn't where we're at as a program. It might be that few teams are anymore with no penalty transfers and NIL.
 
#245      
the national
IMPE Legend said:
Right. Cause replacing all but 2 guys on the roster is totally normal for the staff. They do that all the time. We can definitely compare past years to this one. (insert internet sarcasm notation)

Plus, I have freely said that we should be a good team next year, and maybe great if people gel. That doesn't make letting Coleman leave less of a failure. Both can be true. Losing another piece of continuity is huge with the amount of roster turnover we have had. And when that guy was the 2nd or 3rd best overall player on an Elite 8 team I find it comical that people continue to act like its not a failure.

(And Ayo and Kofi were pre-NIL so nothing about them has anything to do with now.)
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I get the sarcasm voice here but seriously, this isn’t the same game as it was 2-3 yrs ago. Coleman not coming back is a bummer but we couldn’t afford the time or money required to snag him back on our roster. Unless one of the Loyalty board members has a bag, he’s gonna make a business decision. Strictly and foremost, he’s thinking about his future and taking advantage of the best opportunity. He loves Illinois (and us fans) but much like Luke, why wouldn’t he go out and do the best for himself. That very likely and most certainly will be somewhere else. Still love the guy.

Times be a’changin’.
 
#246      
jamarvelous31
IMPE Legend said:
Right. Cause replacing all but 2 guys on the roster is totally normal for the staff. They do that all the time. We can definitely compare past years to this one. (insert internet sarcasm notation)

Plus, I have freely said that we should be a good team next year, and maybe great if people gel. That doesn't make letting Coleman leave less of a failure. Both can be true. Losing another piece of continuity is huge with the amount of roster turnover we have had. And when that guy was the 2nd or 3rd best overall player on an Elite 8 team I find it comical that people continue to act like its not a failure.

(And Ayo and Kofi were pre-NIL so nothing about them has anything to do with now.)
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I don't even think you know what your point is.
 
#247      
IMPE Legend
illini0440 said:
Hold out for what? Coleman and Illinois had 4 great years together and both sides knew it was time to move on. Also NBA scouts love Booth.
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Do you think that we could find a comparable piece to Booth right now? Nothing about his numbers or shooting percentages seem like a guy you had to pounce on. Now maybe we got him for a steal? That's part of the problem with mystery NIL. Other than the IRS we all have to guess what players are making. If you add up Booth and White's NIL is it higher then, equal to, or less than what Hawkins will make? That is an unknown that really needs to be known to give a fuller idea of what moves are good and which are bad(or at least questionable). Booth could have been a great addition if the price was right. But if the price was right then the team still wouldn't be prevented from bringing Coleman back.

But in my mind it all goes back to why both sides apparently knew it was time to move on. Few of the answers are positive for the team. Playing time and opportunity were there. So it seems like it was a lack of money(investment) in a player who had been here for 4 years or Hawkins saw our system/program as worse than his options(which are unknowns at this point). Those don't sound positive and I think simply saying they knew it was time to move on is avoiding looking at why they knew it.

And yes, I know part of my anger is at the entire current system itself, but I don't think losing a guy who has been this loyal for the likely reasons that I have said is just ok. It shows a lack of commitment from the team or a lack of faith by the player. Neither are great.
 
#248      
jamarvelous31
BretMyBeachHouse said:
So many rationalizations on this. Sorry I'm picking on you.

First, to your last point, we actually had "insiders" tell us that there were donors ready to pony up dollars.

Second, he's a lot better than pretty much every college portal guy we got and better for our win prospects than every portal guy we got except Boswell.

Third, another poster said he wasn't the 1st or 2nd option on a championship team. Not sure why that even matters. He's a guy that helps you get to a championship which is why a team which is already loaded will be willing to put up big dollars for him. Now whether he thinks that works for his future is another question. 24 mpg and 10 shots on Arkansas might look different to him than 15 shots and 32 mpg at Florida, let's say. No clue what he's thinking.

Fourth, I'm sure this was a mutual agreement. BU probably wanted a firm decision as it entered into the recruitment of the guys we got. Stacking top talent on top of other top talent isn't where we're at as a program. It might be that few teams are anymore with no penalty transfers and NIL.
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Wow, this is another 'what is your actual point'?

To put it in NBA terms, he is a max player who will be your 3rd best scoring option (if you hope to win). He is not a dominant defensive player, ball handler, or scorer. He's a swiss army knife that's really good at all of that. But there's a reason why he just withdrew from a weak draft.

Claiming that we are not stacking top talent when we will have 5 top 60 HS players & a projected 25/6 international 1st is ignorant. I assume this will be the most top 60 RSCI players IL has had on it's roster in decades.
 
#249      
Combo
BretMyBeachHouse said:
So many rationalizations on this. Sorry I'm picking on you.

First, to your last point, we actually had "insiders" tell us that there were donors ready to pony up dollars.

Second, he's a lot better than pretty much every college portal guy we got and better for our win prospects than every portal guy we got except Boswell.

Third, another poster said he wasn't the 1st or 2nd option on a championship team. Not sure why that even matters. He's a guy that helps you get to a championship which is why a team which is already loaded will be willing to put up big dollars for him. Now whether he thinks that works for his future is another question. 24 mpg and 10 shots on Arkansas might look different to him than 15 shots and 32 mpg at Florida, let's say. No clue what he's thinking.

Fourth, I'm sure this was a mutual agreement. BU probably wanted a firm decision as it entered into the recruitment of the guys we got. Stacking top talent on top of other top talent isn't where we're at as a program. It might be that few teams are anymore with no penalty transfers and NIL.
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We had insiders tell us there was a specific donor for Coleman and (and one for Domask as well ) that would pay all their NIL regardless of what our NIL in aggregate did (supposedly they personally liked each of those two young men beyond talent on the court). If that's true, the mystery donor could still pay Coleman's way. However, it's reasonable to think if there was such a person, they may have changed their mind given who we've added and how much inflation there has been in acquiring talent over the last two months.

The second bolded point I obviously agree with you. I'm guessing BU and Coleman and maybe even his family spoke about this at season's end. If Coleman couldn't make a reasonably firm commitment to coming back, BU logically had to recruit under the assumption that he was gone. Which is exactly what he did and overall we did pretty well (anyone that complains about adding Ivisic, Booth, Hum, and White (in addition to Morez and Ty) to our front court is a malcontent. Unlikely any of those will be All-Americans next year, but they are all guys who could start at good programs.

The way both sides (the coaching start and Coleman) handled this was perfectly rational from both sides.
 
#250      
the national
jamarvelous31 said:
Wow, this is another 'what is your actual point'?

To put it in NBA terms, he is a max player who will be your 3rd best scoring option (if you hope to win). He is not a dominant defensive player, ball handler, or scorer. He's a swiss army knife that's really good at all of that. But there's a reason why he just withdrew from a weak draft.

Claiming that we are not stacking top talent when we will have 5 top 60 HS players & a projected 25/6 international 1st is ignorant. I assume this will be the most top 60 RSCI players IL has had on it's roster in decades.
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Hes Right GIF by MOODMAN
 
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