what utter twaddle
Conference Realignment
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Back in another thread, I put out something similar to this, but on a grander scale. I suggested that the P5+ND should all split from the NCAA, and form their own association and run their own championships. It would be an association of 74 of the top college athletics programs, and the amount of TV money it would rake in would be insane. That would leave the NCAA with the mid-majors, D2 and D3 ,and they would have to fight with the NAIA for relevance. That alone would give me warm fuzzies.
I know the focus here is primarily on football, but there are other sports involved. If you pay attention to hockey, you'll remember that Penn State caused a tectonic shift in the college hockey landscape when it resurrected it's hockey program in 2010. This one move led to the B1G announcing in 2013 that it would sponsor hockey, removing Michigan, Ohio State, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan State from their respective conferences. The dominos that fell after that saw one entire conference (CCHA) dissolved, the creation of a new conference (NCHC), and the remaining conferences picking off programs from each other to fill out their schedules. The B1G also added Notre Dame (which played against UM, MSU, and OSU in the CCHA) to get to an even number.
A few days ago, there was talk on this board of raiding the ACC. For what it's worth, going after Boston College would be one way to get an historically decent football program, but also a hockey program that has won five national championships. Other national champions now in the B1G include UM (8), MSU (3), Wisconsin (6), Minnesota (5). The Big Ten Network has been carrying hockey games when there's nothing else going on, but adding a program like BC would add great competition and Boston-area eyeballs, where hockey is a bigger sport than football. I know BC doesn't necessarily fit the profile, but I think it would be a good add.
A few days ago, there was talk on this board of raiding the ACC. For what it's worth, going after Boston College would be one way to get an historically decent football program, but also a hockey program that has won five national championships. Other national champions now in the B1G include UM (8), MSU (3), Wisconsin (6), Minnesota (5). The Big Ten Network has been carrying hockey games when there's nothing else going on, but adding a program like BC would add great competition and Boston-area eyeballs, where hockey is a bigger sport than football. I know BC doesn't necessarily fit the profile, but I think it would be a good add.
altenberger22
- South Carolina
I'm afraid your flaw here is using the words hockey and tectonic in the same sentence.
- tectonic --- (of a change or development) very significant or considerable.
"the last decade has witnessed a tectonic shift in world affairs"
mattcoldagelli
- Script Illinois Enthusiast
@Lincster27 is getting at something relevant, though, and that's that there's going to be a demand for top-tier college athletics as opposed to a "football confederation that also competes in other things"* Michigan just had players go 1 and 2 in the NHL draft. Do you think they're going to kneecap a program like that so they can go be a second-tier SEC football team?
This is one of the reasons why the PAC-12 stuff makes sense beyond just the shared history/Rose Bowl stuff. I don't think anybody outside the football offices at USC or Stanford wakes up in the morning wondering how to emulate Alabama.
So if that demand exists, who is going to serve it? The logical answer is some kind of combination of the B1G and the PAC-12.
*I know, I know, the SEC is very good at baseball and track, and has UK basketball. But let's be real.
This is one of the reasons why the PAC-12 stuff makes sense beyond just the shared history/Rose Bowl stuff. I don't think anybody outside the football offices at USC or Stanford wakes up in the morning wondering how to emulate Alabama.
So if that demand exists, who is going to serve it? The logical answer is some kind of combination of the B1G and the PAC-12.
*I know, I know, the SEC is very good at baseball and track, and has UK basketball. But let's be real.
uh , that pretty much is what is being done with D1 FBS & D1 hoops . NCAA has already stated that they really don’t know how they add value anymore to either sport . we might have the wild wild west for a few or more years .
Let me throw something else out there. This would probably happen only after Texas, Oklahoma, TAMU, tO$U and UM shake out, but.....
What should/would Illinois do, if in December, The Big 12, SEC, ACC or the Pac-12 approach the Illini to join their conference? Would your opinion change if tO$U and UM left the B1G?
Unless the B1G is imploding, my answer is "no thank you," but at the rate things have gone the last three weeks.......
What should/would Illinois do, if in December, The Big 12, SEC, ACC or the Pac-12 approach the Illini to join their conference? Would your opinion change if tO$U and UM left the B1G?
Unless the B1G is imploding, my answer is "no thank you," but at the rate things have gone the last three weeks.......
Joel Goodson
- dawgville
Pac-12: the problem with a benevolent merger is that revenue (per school) will be diluted or at best stay the same. If we go full Machiavelli (raid 6 schools), ca-ching!
The Pac 12 schools are a perfect match, athletics and academics wise.
The Pac 12 schools are a perfect match, athletics and academics wise.
The question is then, how much $$ would the top 6 PAC schools add, and could that entice them to abandon the PAC?
Could Fox Sports get involved to help drive this?
the networks are already involved and are very influential in the process .
Well, it was a pretty significant change in the college hockey landscape, so I don't think it's a bad adjective to use. To each his own.
Didn't Guenther when he was working for the conference come up with some plan to have the Big Ten and PAC[?] play against each other in all sports? I thought both conferences introduced it until the PAC[?] coaches quietly shot it down.
Guys, that's a lot of miles for all the non-revenue sports to be spewing carbon for athletics. I don't see the PAC schools going for that, unless they could include some climate change demonstrators or something along for the ride. Well, no matter, it's a long flight and the Big Ten will always be at a disadvantage with the circadian rhythm. I don't see how bringing them into the conference will work. At some point, distance has to outweigh dollars. It might have to wait for high speed, environmentally clean travel.
Guys, that's a lot of miles for all the non-revenue sports to be spewing carbon for athletics. I don't see the PAC schools going for that, unless they could include some climate change demonstrators or something along for the ride. Well, no matter, it's a long flight and the Big Ten will always be at a disadvantage with the circadian rhythm. I don't see how bringing them into the conference will work. At some point, distance has to outweigh dollars. It might have to wait for high speed, environmentally clean travel.
i agree with you
way too far for every sport but football
and there was some agreement between the conferences for loose affiliation to some degree that fell apart
mattcoldagelli
- Script Illinois Enthusiast
Not sure what you guys are envisioning, but if the conference were to go to 20, it's not like everyone would be playing round robin schedules. Adding six at once eases the travel burden because they will still have each other to play, whether it is in a division/pod/whatever.
I don't know for sure, but I know 20 does not divide by 6 without producing a remainder (relegation anyone? Two last place teams play against the former Big XII), and I'm pretty sure that there aren't a lot of sports that play only 5 games/events and if they do a home and home to get to ten, I'm pretty sure everyone else would be pissed to not be able to see other conference foes. So, it seems like quite a bit of travel no matter how I look at this.
Now if the conference is really forward thinking, they can add them to an eSports league and grab some of the schools from the southeast to put the squeeze on the SEC.
Effectively if you add 6 (USC, UCLA, Oregon, Washington, Stanford, Colorado)
You have a “West” pod of USC, UCLA, Oregon, Washington, Stanford and then a “Midwest” pod of Colorado, Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin (or something similar anyway).
Someone else was proposing Cal instead of Colorado. Colorado could definitely be moved to a Midwest pod to tidy things up, but that's even more travel as the West Coast pod is smaller.
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
Long time no see fellas. Had a moment of clarity on this subject and thought this was the right place to put it.
The notion that the Big Ten ought to carve up the Pac 12 has the whole thing entirely backwards. The contest to shred all tradition and rootedness from college sports in order to create the most valuable rights package for the next TV rights deal and blanket the most valuable recruiting territory in the country to create a football conference to end all football conferences is over, it concluded today, the SEC has won.
Luckily, the SEC (and the rest of the Power Five) has been playing the wrong game this whole time and they've left themselves exposed.
The Big Ten and Pac 12 ensure their mutual doom fighting to the death trying to play that game. The opportunity lies in working together, and seizing this rare opportunity.
Start with two premises, both of which are totally rejected by the emergent SEC project:
1. Tradition, broadly defined, is what separates US college sports from every other minor league on earth, it is the secret sauce, the thing from which the super-brands emerged.
2. There is more to college sports as a business than the elite handful of football programs.
With those as your starting point, the grand traditions of college sports and the demands of modern commerce and marketing are no longer in tension. Here's what you do:
1. The Big Ten and Pac 12 absorb the remaining Big 12 teams, and combine to form a single entity strictly for the purpose of selling media rights.
2. Since these conversations are always about hypothetical divisions anyway, here goes:
Pac 12 West
USC
UCLA
Stanford
Cal
Oregon
Oregon State
Washington
Washington State
Pac 12 East
Arizona
Arizona State
Utah
Colorado
Texas Tech
Baylor
TCU
Oklahoma State
Big Ten West
Illinois
Northwestern
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Iowa
Iowa State
Nebraska
Kansas
Kansas State
Big Ten East
Michigan
Michigan State
Indiana
Purdue
Ohio State
Penn State
West Virginia
Rutgers
Maryland
(Four time zones, four divisions, you do the math TV scheduling-wise)
3. I'd avoid it if I could, but the winners of these divisions will play in conference championship games.
4. The winners of which will meet in the Rose Bowl Game, played between these two conference champions every January 1 at 3:30 PM like God intended.
5. These leagues will exit the College Football Playoff, which will be left as a rump, regional competition. But will be happy to discuss any post-bowl opponent for the Rose Bowl champion.
6. The combined entity will mandate that all games must be played at campus sites (or the usual home stadia of its teams). They will not serve as opponents for one-offs in Atlanta and Dallas.
7. Use the NIL rules to redirect as much of the combined entity's revenue to players as you can, particularly in basketball, baseball, soccer, and hockey (at least for the Big Ten side).
The SEC (and ACC who are probably trapped on this path), are engaged in a race to the bottom to dominate one region in one sport. They will succeed.
The two conferences who have always been likeliest to at least consider the less cynical view of the college sports world need to have the courage of their convictions enough to place their bet on a nationally dominant entity in everything else. We've entered the nuclear war phase in college sports history, and the only winning move is not to play.
The notion that the Big Ten ought to carve up the Pac 12 has the whole thing entirely backwards. The contest to shred all tradition and rootedness from college sports in order to create the most valuable rights package for the next TV rights deal and blanket the most valuable recruiting territory in the country to create a football conference to end all football conferences is over, it concluded today, the SEC has won.
Luckily, the SEC (and the rest of the Power Five) has been playing the wrong game this whole time and they've left themselves exposed.
The Big Ten and Pac 12 ensure their mutual doom fighting to the death trying to play that game. The opportunity lies in working together, and seizing this rare opportunity.
Start with two premises, both of which are totally rejected by the emergent SEC project:
1. Tradition, broadly defined, is what separates US college sports from every other minor league on earth, it is the secret sauce, the thing from which the super-brands emerged.
2. There is more to college sports as a business than the elite handful of football programs.
With those as your starting point, the grand traditions of college sports and the demands of modern commerce and marketing are no longer in tension. Here's what you do:
1. The Big Ten and Pac 12 absorb the remaining Big 12 teams, and combine to form a single entity strictly for the purpose of selling media rights.
2. Since these conversations are always about hypothetical divisions anyway, here goes:
Pac 12 West
USC
UCLA
Stanford
Cal
Oregon
Oregon State
Washington
Washington State
Pac 12 East
Arizona
Arizona State
Utah
Colorado
Texas Tech
Baylor
TCU
Oklahoma State
Big Ten West
Illinois
Northwestern
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Iowa
Iowa State
Nebraska
Kansas
Kansas State
Big Ten East
Michigan
Michigan State
Indiana
Purdue
Ohio State
Penn State
West Virginia
Rutgers
Maryland
(Four time zones, four divisions, you do the math TV scheduling-wise)
3. I'd avoid it if I could, but the winners of these divisions will play in conference championship games.
4. The winners of which will meet in the Rose Bowl Game, played between these two conference champions every January 1 at 3:30 PM like God intended.
5. These leagues will exit the College Football Playoff, which will be left as a rump, regional competition. But will be happy to discuss any post-bowl opponent for the Rose Bowl champion.
6. The combined entity will mandate that all games must be played at campus sites (or the usual home stadia of its teams). They will not serve as opponents for one-offs in Atlanta and Dallas.
7. Use the NIL rules to redirect as much of the combined entity's revenue to players as you can, particularly in basketball, baseball, soccer, and hockey (at least for the Big Ten side).
The SEC (and ACC who are probably trapped on this path), are engaged in a race to the bottom to dominate one region in one sport. They will succeed.
The two conferences who have always been likeliest to at least consider the less cynical view of the college sports world need to have the courage of their convictions enough to place their bet on a nationally dominant entity in everything else. We've entered the nuclear war phase in college sports history, and the only winning move is not to play.
Assuming adding USC, UCLA, Oregon, Washington, Colorado, and Stanford as mentioned above, how would a 20-team, 5-pod conference play out hypothetically (football-wise)? Something similar to this (I guess):
Pod-A --> USC, UCLA, Oregon, Washington, and Stanford
Pod B --> Colorado, Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin
Pod C --> Illinois, Northwestern, Purdue, Indiana, Michigan St.
Pod D --> Michigan, Ohio St., Penn St., Maryland, Rutgers
Then what? Pods play all teams in their pod once and rotate through the rest of the pods on a three year cycle? in that regards, for football at least, you're not looking at a lot of extra travel. For the teams that play Pod-A, you have two or three games that require travel out west once every three years. The bigger difference is that every team in Pod-A now has a guaranteed two or three game schedule out "east" every season. I don't imagine that's going to be a hold up in any sort of negotiation like this.
Now, beyond football (because, as many people have mentioned, there are like 296 other sports that exist besides just football), how in god's name is a 20-team conference from coast to coast going to work?! Even on a map it looks ridiculous... let alone in practicality.
Pod-A --> USC, UCLA, Oregon, Washington, and Stanford
Pod B --> Colorado, Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin
Pod C --> Illinois, Northwestern, Purdue, Indiana, Michigan St.
Pod D --> Michigan, Ohio St., Penn St., Maryland, Rutgers
Then what? Pods play all teams in their pod once and rotate through the rest of the pods on a three year cycle? in that regards, for football at least, you're not looking at a lot of extra travel. For the teams that play Pod-A, you have two or three games that require travel out west once every three years. The bigger difference is that every team in Pod-A now has a guaranteed two or three game schedule out "east" every season. I don't imagine that's going to be a hold up in any sort of negotiation like this.
Now, beyond football (because, as many people have mentioned, there are like 296 other sports that exist besides just football), how in god's name is a 20-team conference from coast to coast going to work?! Even on a map it looks ridiculous... let alone in practicality.
GrayGhost77
- Centennial, CO
I don't think so. I don't like it.
I believe it was the great Tommy Callahan Sr. that famously said "In collegiate sports, you're either growing our you're dying. There ain't no third direction."
I will give you the Like for the Tommy Boy quote, but sign me up for league games all day every Saturday. Every game would have significance towards the Rose Bowl Play-ins.
The Galloping Ghost
- Washington, DC
Joel Goodson
- dawgville
Cal, not Colorado. For a lot of reasons, not the least of which is no chance UCLA leaves the Pac 12 w/o them.
Switching gears, Gritty's proposal has appeal. Wonder what the revenue #s would look like?
illini80
- Forgottonia
Honestly, this has way more appeal to me than anything I’ve read so far.
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