College Athletes May Qualify as Employees

#26      
College athletes should be treated as individual private contractors. They are selling their talents to the institutions that most meet their personal needs and that values them the most. And athletes have the freedom to move on after a single season without being tied up in bureaucratic red-tape.

Athletes should get a measure of insurance protection from institutions for any injuries suffered (like a private contractor being hurt at some job site) but they should also have their own personal health insurance beyond what an institution would provide.

This gives the athlete the greatest potential for income earned as they deserve from performance ... their freedom of movement... while institutions know they have that athlete’s services for a 12-month period to count on.

God Bless the Portal. Worst to First in a single season now possible.

I'm all about free markets...but if you're going to structure the market like that, then why bother even enrolling in the university? they're just straight up employees (or contractors) of the university at that point, no different than a professor, admin person, etc.

and, yes, you could obviously argue that it was the same way before, just behind the scenes, where now it's official. but if we're really going to treat the market as it is, then why not really make it look like it really is?
 
#28      
These athletes pushing this nonsense (and their greedy attorneys) are ignoring the value of the free education they receive. They are going to force a discussion about the value of the services rendered by each side, and the vast majority of student athletes across all sports are going to lose while a few elite athletes will get big bucks from the few institutions that remain. The consequences of this will be highly destructive. Those who believe we can keep all the good things we currently have and just add some money in for the athletes are incredibly naive.
 
#29      
These athletes pushing this nonsense (and their greedy attorneys) are ignoring the value of the free education they receive. They are going to force a discussion about the value of the services rendered by each side, and the vast majority of student athletes across all sports are going to lose while a few elite athletes will get big bucks from the few institutions that remain. The consequences of this will be highly destructive. Those who believe we can keep all the good things we currently have and just add some money in for the athletes are incredibly naive.
You prefer a system where highly skilled people generate billions in revenue as a direct result of their work and receive 40-50k/ year in tuition? Oh by the way, they also have to do more work for free in their spare time to achieve that degree or that 40-50k in tuition becomes worthless....
 
#30      
You prefer a system where highly skilled people generate billions in revenue as a direct result of their work and receive 40-50k/ year in tuition? Oh by the way, they also have to do more work for free in their spare time to achieve that degree or that 40-50k in tuition becomes worthless....
In order to avoid additional lawsuits, outside of NIL (should that not change), all will have to be paid the same, IMO … IANAL … EIEIO
 
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#32      
I don't think that's right. Why would that be the case in college athletics when it's not in any other employment setting?
We’ll, in the case of public schools (where all employees are public employees), equal pay for equal work … (and if you’re thinking a starter works more/harder than a non-starter, e.g., then staff becomes a target for denying equal opportunity, etc.) … it’s a can of worms. Lawyers be smiling all the way to the bank.
 
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#33      
You prefer a system where highly skilled people generate billions in revenue as a direct result of their work and receive 40-50k/ year in tuition? Oh by the way, they also have to do more work for free in their spare time to achieve that degree or that 40-50k in tuition becomes worthless....
That’s an inaccurate statement. More accurately, there are few hundreds of athletes (mainly in FB and MBB) that are generating those billions vs. tens of thousands of “student athletes” getting that free tuition (and other benefits). Everyone focuses on the few that get “screwed” while ignoring the many who are benefiting from this system. Also, these billions are temporary; these tv contracts will go away. Ultimately this will simply destroy college sports and we will end up with minor leagues for the sports that matter, and the leeches (lawyers) will move on to another “victim” groups.
 
#34      

No guidance
My thoughts: this is going to get flushed out in the courts. As of 6/28/24, with SCOTUS overturning of Chevron doctrine (see Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo), the Department of Education can take a stance and issue guidance on how they believe Title IX applies here, but that guidance bears absolutely no legal weight. Schools are going to distribute funds as they see fit, they are going to get sued, and it will be years - maybe a decade - before there is any substantive framework for how this has to be done.
 
#35      
I've been on record for a couple of years now that we are witnessing the death of the golden goose. Once the two revenue sports become semi-pro or minor league teams/leagues/conferences we're done.

A) all of the thousands of college athletes in the other sports that are financially supported by men's FB and BB will no longer have access to scholarships - there'll be no money to pay for them, and most will not have the means to attend college, and

B) we already have minor league/semi-pro FB and BB and only the die hardest of fans follow them, which is why they struggle financially, and the pay is at or near the poverty level.

This Is How It Ends The End GIF by Breaking Bad
 
#36      
I've been on record for a couple of years now that we are witnessing the death of the golden goose. Once the two revenue sports become semi-pro or minor league teams/leagues/conferences we're done.

A) all of the thousands of college athletes in the other sports that are financially supported by men's FB and BB will no longer have access to scholarships - there'll be no money to pay for them, and most will not have the means to attend college, and

B) we already have minor league/semi-pro FB and BB and only the die hardest of fans follow them, which is why they struggle financially, and the pay is at or near the poverty level.

This Is How It Ends The End GIF by Breaking Bad
So the more I've thought about this, the more I think this might actually be a salvageable situation due to making a change to the definition of what an athlete is. If we posit that athletes are called employees, then I think there's no way out of the fact that ALL athletes will legally be employees. As such they would be entitled to at least minimum wage, a legally compliant work week, and insurance. So seems like the end of all sports that don't make money.

But, we aren't taking into account the monetary value of a scholarship. What if the NCAA simply changes the definition of what an athletic scholarship is? You can then have the following:

1. Athletes enrolled in the University will be considered employees and get paid a minimum wage [for this example] + benefits and insurance along with an athletic scholarship.
2. All athletes must be enrolled at the university as a student and be academically eligible to be a student for any given year.
3. Enrolled athletes will be enrolled at the university at the full standard tuition cost at the university for their major.
4. The value of the athletic scholarship will be equal to the cost of annual tuition + specialized room/board/food minus the athlete's salary.

So basically by changing the definition of what an athletic scholarship is, you can net zero out most sports without any major hit to you (outside of insurance). Then for the money sports, you can go more competitive with salary or gainshare percentage based on net earnings for the sport or whatever if that's the plan.

Point is, schools are not required by the government to provide full tuition to athletes. So instead of giving them 0 tuition cost plus salary plus benefits, treat them like any other student who works for the school where their salary helps offset the tuition cost and then the scholarship will take care of any additional cost the athlete would have so they zero out the balance.
 
#37      
So the more I've thought about this, the more I think this might actually be a salvageable situation due to making a change to the definition of what an athlete is. If we posit that athletes are called employees, then I think there's no way out of the fact that ALL athletes will legally be employees. As such they would be entitled to at least minimum wage, a legally compliant work week, and insurance. So seems like the end of all sports that don't make money.

But, we aren't taking into account the monetary value of a scholarship. What if the NCAA simply changes the definition of what an athletic scholarship is? You can then have the following:

1. Athletes enrolled in the University will be considered employees and get paid a minimum wage [for this example] + benefits and insurance along with an athletic scholarship.
2. All athletes must be enrolled at the university as a student and be academically eligible to be a student for any given year.
3. Enrolled athletes will be enrolled at the university at the full standard tuition cost at the university for their major.
4. The value of the athletic scholarship will be equal to the cost of annual tuition + specialized room/board/food minus the athlete's salary.

So basically by changing the definition of what an athletic scholarship is, you can net zero out most sports without any major hit to you (outside of insurance). Then for the money sports, you can go more competitive with salary or gainshare percentage based on net earnings for the sport or whatever if that's the plan.

Point is, schools are not required by the government to provide full tuition to athletes. So instead of giving them 0 tuition cost plus salary plus benefits, treat them like any other student who works for the school where their salary helps offset the tuition cost and then the scholarship will take care of any additional cost the athlete would have so they zero out the balance.
Just to add a little spice to this … would you factor in the difference between out-of-state tuition (for non-residents) and in-state tuition (for residents)? Does NIL still exist (in its current or some alternate form)? Do redshirts still exist? Do all net revenue-generating sport athletes receive the same employee compensation (if I’m reading your proposal correctly, it seems all student athletes receive the same employee compensation, right?). Are walk-ons still allowed? Are foreign student athletes eligible to be employees? … etc., etc.
 
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#38      
So the more I've thought about this, the more I think this might actually be a salvageable situation due to making a change to the definition of what an athlete is. If we posit that athletes are called employees, then I think there's no way out of the fact that ALL athletes will legally be employees. As such they would be entitled to at least minimum wage, a legally compliant work week, and insurance. So seems like the end of all sports that don't make money.

But, we aren't taking into account the monetary value of a scholarship. What if the NCAA simply changes the definition of what an athletic scholarship is? You can then have the following:

1. Athletes enrolled in the University will be considered employees and get paid a minimum wage [for this example] + benefits and insurance along with an athletic scholarship.
2. All athletes must be enrolled at the university as a student and be academically eligible to be a student for any given year.
3. Enrolled athletes will be enrolled at the university at the full standard tuition cost at the university for their major.
4. The value of the athletic scholarship will be equal to the cost of annual tuition + specialized room/board/food minus the athlete's salary.

So basically by changing the definition of what an athletic scholarship is, you can net zero out most sports without any major hit to you (outside of insurance). Then for the money sports, you can go more competitive with salary or gainshare percentage based on net earnings for the sport or whatever if that's the plan.

Point is, schools are not required by the government to provide full tuition to athletes. So instead of giving them 0 tuition cost plus salary plus benefits, treat them like any other student who works for the school where their salary helps offset the tuition cost and then the scholarship will take care of any additional cost the athlete would have so they zero out the balance.
This is the way
 
#39      
So the more I've thought about this, the more I think this might actually be a salvageable situation due to making a change to the definition of what an athlete is. If we posit that athletes are called employees, then I think there's no way out of the fact that ALL athletes will legally be employees. As such they would be entitled to at least minimum wage, a legally compliant work week, and insurance. So seems like the end of all sports that don't make money.

But, we aren't taking into account the monetary value of a scholarship. What if the NCAA simply changes the definition of what an athletic scholarship is? You can then have the following:

1. Athletes enrolled in the University will be considered employees and get paid a minimum wage [for this example] + benefits and insurance along with an athletic scholarship.
2. All athletes must be enrolled at the university as a student and be academically eligible to be a student for any given year.
3. Enrolled athletes will be enrolled at the university at the full standard tuition cost at the university for their major.
4. The value of the athletic scholarship will be equal to the cost of annual tuition + specialized room/board/food minus the athlete's salary.

So basically by changing the definition of what an athletic scholarship is, you can net zero out most sports without any major hit to you (outside of insurance). Then for the money sports, you can go more competitive with salary or gainshare percentage based on net earnings for the sport or whatever if that's the plan.

Point is, schools are not required by the government to provide full tuition to athletes. So instead of giving them 0 tuition cost plus salary plus benefits, treat them like any other student who works for the school where their salary helps offset the tuition cost and then the scholarship will take care of any additional cost the athlete would have so they zero out the balance.
NC2A would never approve....it makes too much sense
 
#40      
I've been on record for a couple of years now that we are witnessing the death of the golden goose. Once the two revenue sports become semi-pro or minor league teams/leagues/conferences we're done.

A) all of the thousands of college athletes in the other sports that are financially supported by men's FB and BB will no longer have access to scholarships - there'll be no money to pay for them, and most will not have the means to attend college, and

B) we already have minor league/semi-pro FB and BB and only the die hardest of fans follow them, which is why they struggle financially, and the pay is at or near the poverty level.

This Is How It Ends The End GIF by Breaking Bad
I agree !

But is it a bad thing. Why should someone who can throw a shotput get a free education? It is not generating revenue for the university. The adults (18 years old kids) that have a talent that generates money will get paid, seems like the real world to me.

There are 2 things that will be will impacted though.

1) The universities will have to priorities they funds to be competitive in certain sports. (example - Illinois will target Basketball over Football, because it is tough to compete in B10 football)

2) High schools sports will have to adapt to the new landscape of scholarships & NIL opportunities

If high schools drop the water polo programs - so be it

Maybe, just maybe schools might turn more of it's focus to education in the future. For now we'll keep getting watch the sports we love.
 
#42      
I agree !

But is it a bad thing. Why should someone who can throw a shotput get a free education? It is not generating revenue for the university. The adults (18 years old kids) that have a talent that generates money will get paid, seems like the real world to me.

There are 2 things that will be will impacted though.

1) The universities will have to priorities they funds to be competitive in certain sports. (example - Illinois will target Basketball over Football, because it is tough to compete in B10 football)

2) High schools sports will have to adapt to the new landscape of scholarships & NIL opportunities

If high schools drop the water polo programs - so be it

Maybe, just maybe schools might turn more of it's focus to education in the future. For now we'll keep getting watch the sports we love.
I played club sports during my time at Illinois because we didn't - and still don't - have an intercollegiate team (men's volleyball), and while the university kicked in a little money, we paid for most things ourselves. I see no reason why the non-revenue sports couldn't do the same thing. While athletics do provide an opportunity for some to get a college education at a world class university they might otherwise not be able to afford to attend, one could argue that maybe another avenue to college affordability might be arranged by the universities.

I don't think colleges in Europe have intercollegiate sports anywhere near the level that the US does, they focus on the academics. On the other hand, I did like the athletics model we had here in the US . . . . but I fear we're seeing the beginnings of the end . . .
 
#43      
I played club sports during my time at Illinois because we didn't - and still don't - have an intercollegiate team (men's volleyball), and while the university kicked in a little money, we paid for most things ourselves. I see no reason why the non-revenue sports couldn't do the same thing. While athletics do provide an opportunity for some to get a college education at a world class university they might otherwise not be able to afford to attend, one could argue that maybe another avenue to college affordability might be arranged by the universities.

I don't think colleges in Europe have intercollegiate sports anywhere near the level that the US does, they focus on the academics. On the other hand, I did like the athletics model we had here in the US . . . . but I fear we're seeing the beginnings of the end . . .
Another key difference is that in Europe, most universities have *tuition* cheaper than what American students pay for just textbooks.
 
#44      
Another key difference is that in Europe, most universities have *tuition* cheaper than what American students pay for just textbooks.
I don't know that they do, but I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised. Remember their tax load is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the US.

"As of 2022, the average taxation rate for a single person without children who earned an average salary in the European Union was 29.62 percent of their total earnings" (statista.com)

On top of that VAT ranges from 17% in Luxembourg to 27% in Hungary. For comparison, the US state tax burden runs from 4.6% (AK) to almost 16% (NY) (statista.com)

The average federal income tax rate in 2021 was 14.9 percent. The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.9 percent average rate, nearly eight times higher than the 3.3 percent average rate paid by the bottom half of taxpayers. (taxfoundation.org)

I don't know that I'd want my tax rate bumped up as high as even the average European country to lower my tuition. You pay taxes your entire life . . . tuition is temporary. Of course they have many more social services there than in the US also . . .
 
#45      
Another key difference is that in Europe, most universities have *tuition* cheaper than what American students pay for just textbooks.
Went to Sweden last August, where our native guide said four years were free for all Swedes…
 
#47      

No guidance
Not sure how you can apply Title IX to revenue sharing for athletes as a whole. Wouldn't you share revenue from men's football program with football players, and likewise for other sports. As long as the percentage of revenues that is paid from the revenues generated by each sport's team is equal between men's and women's sports is that not equal distribution - especially when the basis for the argument is that it is the athletes that are valuable participants in the process of producing that revenue. There are a lot of problems with attempting to apply Title IX to fairly distribute revenue to athletes in college sports, which I agree will take years to resolve.

What I find more difficult is Secy Cardona's take on equity in NIL:

"Some of the concerns I have is that it's going to be the male athletes getting paid and [the] just-as-committed, just-as-hard-working women athletes, not. That, to me, speaks to the need to make sure we're communicating proactively, that this is being addressed," Cardona said at the time. "... Universities must adapt and create structures that are monitoring this, that are communicating what they're doing to proactively create equity. Let's not wait for the problem. ... I think we have an opportunity here to really learn from maybe the past and create structures here, or promote structures at the federal level that could be visited at the state, at the college level, that ensure equity, that ensure access."

He is implying that the universities have to take a role is creating "equity" in NIL to comply with Title IX. If he means equality of opportunity that is one thing, but if it is somehow measured by equality in resulting payment amounts that is another.

I would note that many of the highest paid NIL athletes are women - very attractive women gymnasts that have large social media followings more related to their attractiveness than their athletic ability. The fact is that NIL is never going to be fair. It is based upon the value of one's name, image and likeness. For most men, that value is based mostly on athletic ability. For women, athletic ability is still the major factor for most, but there are other factors (the image part) that can come into play. How do you equalize that? How does Title IX take that into account?

It is a positive that NIL as it currently operates is not ran by the universities but by private groups supposedly unaffiliated with the university (but which take their direction from coaching staffs). Theoretically this would not be subject to Title IX, but a good lawyer should be able to argue that the consortiums are not independent.

What a can of worms applying Title IX to this area is going to be.
 
#48      
I don't know that they do, but I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised. Remember their tax load is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the US.

"As of 2022, the average taxation rate for a single person without children who earned an average salary in the European Union was 29.62 percent of their total earnings" (statista.com)

On top of that VAT ranges from 17% in Luxembourg to 27% in Hungary. For comparison, the US state tax burden runs from 4.6% (AK) to almost 16% (NY) (statista.com)

The average federal income tax rate in 2021 was 14.9 percent. The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.9 percent average rate, nearly eight times higher than the 3.3 percent average rate paid by the bottom half of taxpayers. (taxfoundation.org)

I don't know that I'd want my tax rate bumped up as high as even the average European country to lower my tuition. You pay taxes your entire life . . . tuition is temporary. Of course they have many more social services there than in the US also . . .
TL;DR - US/CA pays more taxes than those in Switzerland or Denmark.

About 6 years ago, I did a comparison with some coworkers. We all worked for the same international company. One of them was in Switzerland, and the other in Denmark. I was in US, CA. They were surprised when I had the highest net tax rate. Most studies claiming the US has low taxes forget to include the state taxes. CA tops out at 13.3% (1M+ I think). CA tax is already 9.3% as of ~60k.

The comparison was even worse when you considered that they got health care as part of their taxes.

Yes they pay VAT on some items. Those items cost a very small percentage of their income, so the net VAT paid is a very small percentage. I think it came out to less than 1% of their income. Our sales tax on every day items is higher. (~9.5% in CA, ~6% for them).
 
#49      
TL;DR - US/CA pays more taxes than those in Switzerland or Denmark.

About 6 years ago, I did a comparison with some coworkers. We all worked for the same international company. One of them was in Switzerland, and the other in Denmark. I was in US, CA. They were surprised when I had the highest net tax rate. Most studies claiming the US has low taxes forget to include the state taxes. CA tops out at 13.3% (1M+ I think). CA tax is already 9.3% as of ~60k.

The comparison was even worse when you considered that they got health care as part of their taxes.

Yes they pay VAT on some items. Those items cost a very small percentage of their income, so the net VAT paid is a very small percentage. I think it came out to less than 1% of their income. Our sales tax on every day items is higher. (~9.5% in CA, ~6% for them).
The money we spend on defense they spend on free college, nationalized healthcare, etc. Therein lies the difference.
 
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